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  • Category: Spirituality
  • Founded: Nov 19, 2004
  • Language: English

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Reply Message #431 of 1563 |
Heidnischer Imperialismus


It reads "affermiano", but we corrected spontaneously that
typographical mistake in our previous message. In Italian, personal
pronouns are not always necessary. Fortunately, here, "affermiano" is
preceded by its pronoun personal, that is "noi", so that there is no
ambiguity whatsoever as to the form of the verb.

Typographical mistakes are always possible, and, as a matter of fact,
happen, no matter how serious the publisher. Yet, there are limits to
the number of typographical mistakes which can be tolerated in a
book, limits which, when reached, not only give the impression that
the work of edition was dealt with in an offhand manner, but make
some passages obscure, not to say incomprehensible. The fourth
edition of 'Imperialismo pagano', which comprises 'Imperialismo
pagano' and its German version, 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', has
reached those limits, it has even gone far beyond them. In short, it
has beaten records in this respect : typographical mistakes,
misprints, missing words, duplicated paragraphs and sentences, and so
on. This is not so much a problem with 'Imperialismo pagano' , since
you can always check its previous editions. As far as 'Heidnischer
Imperialismus' is concerned, on the contrary, it is impossible,
unless you are lucky enough to come across a second-hand copy of the
first edition of that work, published by Centri Studi Tradizionali,
Trevise, in 1991, and which is currently out-of-print. Of course, the
original, 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', can still be checked, but
Evola made it clear that he was not satisfied with the work of the
German translator who would translate his works into German at that
time, namely Friedrich Bauer.

An Italian member of this forum, who never posts onto it, who has
been reading again and again Evola's works for 40 years, and
according to whom some passages were deliberately removed from some
of Evola's books, especially from his books on race, after his death,
would not hesitate to speak of 'sabotage' in this respect. What is
certain, for instance, is that the comments which Evola made on
Reghini in the second issue of Krur (February 1929) cannot be found
in the various Italian editions of the writings of the 'Ur and Krur'
group, nor can they be found in 'Introduction to Magic'. They shall
be posted onto this list in due time.

While we are at it, it should be stressed that Evola never forbid
expressly and legally the re-publication of 'Imperialismo pagano',
contrary to the assumptions made on the InterNet by some 'Mrs I-know-
everything' on the basis of partial information which they got from
an introduction written to 'Men among the Ruins' by the current
translator of Evola's work in German. The problem is far more complex
than assumed. The man who was in charge of Fondazione Evola for
years, Gianfranco de Turris, who, a few years after having upheld
that debatable thesis in 'Elogio e difesa di Julius Evola', accepted
to be the editor of the fourth edition of 'Imperialismo pagano', has
come to realise it.



--- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
<hyperborean@b...> wrote:
>
> I never even mentioned the existence of a "rough draft", both
because it
> seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication
and also
> because it was accompanied by some unflattering remarks that
revealed more
> about the character of the poster than of the target of the remarks.
> Besides, I did not want to encourage a private dispute that was
made public
> under the pretext of a critique of Evola.
>
>
>
> The draft was posted to the yahoo [evola] group, which I seldom read
> anymore. I stumbled upon the quote, because I was curious about the
cause of
> the sudden drop in quality of some of the recent posts to this
group. I did
> feel the need to correct such a shocking and fundamental
misunderstanding of
> Evola – that is why I brought the issue up; the existence of a
rough draft
> was only incidental.
>
>
>
> My text has a typographical error – it reads "affermiano", which
could be
> taken either as "affermiamo" or "affermano", depending on where the
error
> lies.
>
> So I quickly and mistakenly took it as "the fatti ed opera affirm
[to us]
> …". But if the correct text has "affermiamo", that would make more
sense.
> Thanks for noticing that.
>
> (It does read "affermiamo" in the original Italian edition on page
115.)
>
>
>
> Finally, I wasn't accusing you of the misreading. The misreading
clearly
> originated in the gentleman who instigated this exchange.
>
> [Note that I referred to it as a "misreading", not
a "mistranslation" – the
> translation was clear to anyone who is actually familiar with
Evola.]
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of evola_as_he_is
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:13 AM
> To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus
>
>
>
>
> Some people tend to assume that "fatti ed opere dipotenza e di
> veggenza" don't exist and are mere 'fantasies', because those
people
> are devoid of any "potenza" and "veggenza". Once again, it seems
that
> even the mere intellectual understanding of Evola's work is largely
> determined by the presence or not in the reader of a quality which
is
> not based on mere analytic intelligence and discursive reason.
>
> Now, where exactly on earth did you read that first draft of the
> translation of "Noi, per contro, fondandoci su una tradizione ben
piů
> antica ed effetiva di quella che non possa rivendicare la "fede"
> dell'uomo occidentale, su una tradizione non testimoniata su
> dottrine, ma per fatti ed opere di potenza e di veggenza, noi
> affermiamo invece la possibilitŕ e la realtŕ effetiva di cio' che
> abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which "has been propagated on the
> Internet, and which is "based on a misreading of a passage
> of "Heidnischer Imperialismus""?
>
> Where?
>
> In that first draft, a part is missing, in the first
sentence : "noi
> affermiamo invece la possibilitŕ e la realtŕ effetiva di cio' che
> abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which would have been reinserted, if
not
> at the first stage, at least at the second stage of proof-reading.
> This being said, 'noi affermiamo' means 'we affirm', 'we assert',
and
> not "they affirm" ('essi/esse affermano').
>
> That misunderstanding is not based on a misreading : both
> translations - yours and the one which has been "propagated on the
> internet" -, convey the same meaning, that of the original,
provided
> that you correct "they" and replace it with 'we'.
>
>
>
>
> --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
> <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
> >
> > An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the
Internet
> based on
> > a misreading of a passage of "Heidnischer Imperialismus".
> >
> >
> >
> > On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to
translate
> this
> > passage as such:
> >
> >
> >
> > <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older
> and more
> > effective than that which the "faith" of Western man can lay
claim
> to, a
> > tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of
power
> and
> > vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete
> reality of what
> > we have called "Wisdom".>>
> >
> >
> >
> > This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the
> difference
> > between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is
absolutely
> > foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other
> traditional
> > metaphysician.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind
> > ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty,
> metaphysical
> > doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special
power
> of
> > "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers")
> who
> > composed the Vedas.
> >
> >
> >
> > As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it
> would make
> > the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in
the
> rather
> > odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the
> path that
> > led to them.
> >
> >
> >
> > What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this "seeing" took
him
> in a
> > racial direction, whereas in Guenon's case, it seems not to have
> done so.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
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>
>
> * Visit your group "evola_as_he_is
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>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> evola_as_he_is-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> _____
>











Wed Dec 7, 2005 12:56 pm

evola_as_he_is
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Message #431 of 1563 |
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I never even mentioned the existence of a “rough draft”, both because it seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication and also ...
Tony Ciopa
hyperborean Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
9:15 am

It reads "affermiano", but we corrected spontaneously that typographical mistake in our previous message. In Italian, personal pronouns are not always...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 7, 2005
1:00 pm

Well, sometimes it's difficult to gain an insight into the Evola's mind. I do not have got the German version, but the incriminated Italian word is "veggenza";...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
11:16 am

'Veggenza' is one of those Italian words which are extremely difficult to translate into English. Its synonyms in Italian are (needless to translate) :...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 6, 2005
11:59 am

I agree that the translation could be less florid, Tony, but it is the underlying thoughts I question : (1) the idea that there is a special spiritual heritage...
Rowan Berkeley
rowan_berkeley Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
11:16 am

You still haven't understood the spirit of this list. The welcome message says : "Not a moment of our time will be wasted upon the "demon of dialectics",...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 6, 2005
4:31 pm

In the most authoritative Italian dictionaries like the Zingarelli, the term 'veggenza' is in fact considered the archaic form of the modern 'chiaroveggenza',...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
1:05 pm

To try to put this to rest, Garzanti has this definition of “veggenza”: 1 (rar.) facoltà di vedere 2 (fig.) capacità di prevedere il futuro: la veggenza...
Tony Ciopa
hyperborean Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
4:24 pm

We could discourse for hours, for days, for months, on how to translate accurately 'veggenza' into English, basing ourselves either on "one of the most...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 6, 2005
4:27 pm

re : "'clairvoyance', which, in English, means 'perceptiveness', 'clear-sightedness'. Yet, the English 'clairvoyance' renders quite well the idea, as 'esp',...
Rowan Berkeley
rowan_berkeley Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
1:25 pm

I believe, Tony, you did not intend to stir up a nest of hornets; anyway just a little addition. The whole chapter has a series of plural verbs: affermiamo,...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
12:50 pm

To be more specific, both 'Imperialismo pagano' and 'Heidnischer Imperialismus' have five chapters, of which four bear the same title : I. 'We, anti-Europeans'...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 7, 2005
4:21 pm

I' m sorry today you are all in a black mood, anyway, to me, it is better to express frankly and loyally our ideas rather than do it slipping away to another...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
5:23 pm

Instead of trying to evade them by referring, in the most detached manner, to the current mood of the members of this forum, or rather to what you assume their...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 7, 2005
7:19 pm

Some sort of detached metaphysical vision, not religious or mystic, without any identification with the object, a knowledge deprived of the pathos of the...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
8:08 pm

Your reactions are exactly the same as those of the religious dogmatists I correspond with : we possess the mystic flame, love us or leave us, and if you...
Rowan Berkeley
rowan_berkeley Offline Send Email
Dec 4, 2005
8:34 pm

We grasp this opportunity you have given us to point at other significant differences between pre-Christian cults of Aryan nature and Christianity, already...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 5, 2005
2:03 pm

oh, come on, what is the idea of aryanism if not a dogma? ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get?...
Rowan Berkeley
rowan_berkeley Offline Send Email
Dec 5, 2005
4:17 pm

... The Roman: hostem cum fugeret, se Fannius ipse peremit. hic, rogo, non furor est, ne moriare, mori? "As he was fleeing the enemy, Fannius killed himself. I...
kshonan88 Offline Send Email Dec 16, 2005
10:10 am

As a matter of fact, in Sanskrit, 'jiv' means 'life, 'life- force' ; 'ji', 'to struggle', 'to beat', 'to win', to 'conquer'. Needless to elaborate. ... dying ...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 16, 2005
8:53 pm

Joseph Campbell and Hans Zimmer hypothesized that some contradictions of the Zoroastrianism show just the presence of a pre-Aryan matriarchal cult in Iran. ...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 6, 2005
4:24 pm

In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found? vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote: Joseph Campbell and...
Savitar Devi
savitar_devi Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
9:15 am

J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951. Also H.S. Nyberg, Die Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938. I have not them;...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
12:31 pm

I'd be very interested to read more about this, too, if anyone else can provide quotations. vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote: J....
Troy Southgate
arktoslondon Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
12:59 pm

To Whom It May Concern: Southgate would like someone else to do the research for him, since he does not feel up to doing it himself. He will then probably...
Tony Ciopa
hyperborean Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
3:05 pm

Would it not be wise for the monitor of this group to delete all the "ad hominems"? ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired...
caleb afendopoulo
afendopoulo Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
4:45 pm

We tolerate 'ad hominem' attacks to a certain extent, to the extent that, as pointed out by Seneca, as well as by Evola in 'Sintesi di dottrina della razza',...
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email Dec 7, 2005
4:59 pm

thank you for your reply. it just seemed to us that some of the replies bordered on childishness and/or based upon previous personal encounters which we are ...
caleb afendopoulo
afendopoulo Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
7:00 pm

In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com ... I agree that ataraxia is the best thing, but perhaps a justified feeling of hurt can rise when an 'ad hominem' attack...
vandermok
charltonroad36 Offline Send Email
Dec 9, 2005
12:38 pm

My own research speaks for itself: http://www.rosenoire.org (thanks for the chance to plug my website, Tony) Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:...
Troy Southgate
arktoslondon Offline Send Email
Dec 7, 2005
8:07 pm
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