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  • Members: 121
  • Category: Spirituality
  • Founded: Nov 19, 2004
  • Language: English

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'The Path of Cinnabar'   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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Re: 'The Path of Cinnabar'

There does not seem to be any limit to your bad faith.

In a translation that will be undertaken of the first chapter of 'Il Cammino del
cinabro" in the manly spirit of http://thompkins_cariou.tripod.com/id101.html,
the opportunity will be taken ("ci sarà dato") to rectify some other ambiguous
formulations or mistakes of yours, hopefully, this time, without typos - our
platonic secretary seems to be on holiday - , such as the use, in the
penultimate paragraph, of 'existentialism' instead of 'existentiality'
('esistenzialità' - the human condition of being "ahead of oneself"), one of
Heidegger's key concepts ; such as, still in the penultimate paragraph, your
mirthful rendition of "Comunque, finora mi è stato dato [not "mi è stato detto"]
di sostenere la tensione, spesso spossante, e le ripercussioni dovute a questa
situazione esistenziale" as "What I was told is to endure the often sapping
tension, and the consequences of my existential condition", when what it means
is : "I was able to stand ('sostenere' - 'endure' has connotations of suffering
which do not apply to the road taken and followed by J. Evola] the often sapping
tension, and the repercussions ['ripercussioni' - concrete consequences are
hinted at here] of my existential situation [not 'condition', but 'situation' :
'Dasein' - for goodness' sake, Heidegger and Jasper have just been mentioned].

Once again in this paragraph, a recurring concept throughout his work is brought
up, that of the 'più-che-vivere', which is a literal translation of the
Nietzschean and Simmelian "mehr-als-Leben" - instead of betraying, J. Evola, as
well all other serious contemporary philosophers, did not hesitate to sometimes
resort to literal translations. "Mehr-als-Leben" has nothing to do with, as
translated in 'The Path of the Cinnabar', "supra-existence", nor with the 'new
age' connotations of this term. Either readers should find out for themselves
what it actually means, or it should be clarified in a footnote. J. Evola never
bothered to footnote it, nor did his various Italian, German, Spanish or French
publishers. It is true that most cultivated Italians were acquainted with German
philosophy at that time.

Another passage of 'The Path of Cinnabar' shows unambiguously that, to be
successful, the translation of the first chapter of 'Il Cammino' requires a
basic knowledge of the philosophers mentioned in it, as well as of Aristotle :
"The second way in which Nietzsche agreed with my personal inclinations was in
his revolt against the bourgeois world and its petty morals, against the
bourgeois world and its petty morals, against egalitarianism, democratic ideals
and conformism, and in his affirmation of an aristocratic morality, and of the
values of an existence which severs all bonds, and is a law unto itself."

An existence, by definition, cannot sever any bond, "and be a law unto itself"
(?).

A being can.

"... and of the values of a being/man who severs all bonds, and is a law to
himself" (the cultivated man "will therefore regulate his wit, and will be as it
were a law to himself" (Eth. Me. 4.8,10)) is the proper translation of "... e
dei valori dell'essere che si scioglie da ogni legame ed è a sé stesso la
propria leggo."

J. Evola was not some sort of 'New Age' author. This must be seriously taken
into account, lexically, stylistically, and syntactically, when setting to
translate his writtings.



--- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <ouro_boros@...> wrote:
>
> As for your first accusation, the passage in Italian reads:
> "Circa il cattolicesimo in quanto, in genere, religione positiva, si
manifestarono anche nel mio caso gli effetti deprecabili del suo essersi ormai
ridotto a forme emotivo-sentimentali e moralistiche in margine alla società
borghese", which is not what you quoted in your original post. You wrote "forme
devozionale", which is not even grammatically correct.
>
> Our translation reads:
> "And while I recognised the validity of Catholicism as a positive religion, I
also personally witnessed the disgraceful effects of its dissolution into
emotional, sentimental and moralistic forms in the context of modern bourgeois
society..."
>
> Literally, it would be:
> "Concerning Catholicism as a positive religion in general, in my case too
there manifested themselves the disgraceful effects etc.".
>
> Apart from the fact that this not a word-for-word translation, which is not a
correct approach to take to any translation, there is no difference in meaning.
>
> As for your second accusation, the original reads:
> "È una banale apologetica in base ai dati più esteriori, catechistici e
sentimentali di questa credenza. Ciò, mentre era stato proprio il Papini del
primo periodo a far conoscere a noi giovani, fra l'altro, figure di mistici,
quali Meister Eckhart, e scritti sapienziali che avrebbero avviato verso ben
diversi orizzonti, nel caso di un vero superamento in senso tradizionale
dell'individualismo intellettualistico e anarchico. "
>
> Our translation reads:
> "That book of Papini's is a banal, apologetic book based on the most external,
catechistic and sentimental aspects of Christianity; and yet it was the very
Papini who had previously introduced young people to the figures of mystics like
Meister Eckhart, and to esoteric works which could lead to very different
horizons through the genuine, traditionalist transcendence of intellectualistic,
anarchic individualism."
>
> Literally, it would be:
>
> "It is banal apologetics based on the most exterior, catechistic and
sentimental elements of this belief. This, while it had been the Papini of the
first period himself who had made us young people acquainted, among other
things, with figures of mystics such as Meister Eckhart, and sapiential writings
that would have led us towards very different horizons, in the case of a real
overcoming in a traditional sense of intellectualistic and anarchist
intellectualism."
>
> Again, there is no difference in meaning. A translation must be readable, not
simply a word-for-word reproduction.
>
>
> --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Evola" <evola_as_he_is@> wrote:
> >
> > Of course, you don't see the difference. J. Evola writes : "With respect to
Catholicism as a positive religion in general, I also personally witnessed the
disgraceful effects of its dissolution into emotional forms..", which,
syntactically rearranged, gives - inelegantly but literally : "I also personally
witnessed the disgraceful effects of the dissolution of Catholicism as a
positive religion in general into emotional... forms...", but it does not bother
you to mistranslate it as : "And while I recognised the validity of Catholicism
as a positive religion, I also personally witnessed the disgraceful effects of
its dissolution into emotional... forms."
> >
> > We are not bothered with the fact that this translation of 'Il Cammino del
cinabro' is often approximate. The problem with it is essentially its
mistranslations, such as that which is found in the last clause of the following
sentence, which is as plain as the nose on one's face : "That book of Papini's
is a banal, apologetic book based on the most external, catechistic and
sentimental aspects of Christianity ; and yet it was the very Papini who had
previously introduced young people to the figures of mystics like Meister
Eckhart, and to esoteric works which could lead to very different horizons
through the genuine, traditionalist transcendence of intellectualistic, anarchic
individualism." (p. 12) "the genuine, traditionalist transcendence of
intellectualistic, anarchic individualism"?
> >
> > "… e scritti sapienziali che avrebbero avviato verso ben diversi orizzonti,
nel caso di un vero superamento in senso tradizionale dell'individualismo
intellettualistico e anarchico" means "… and to wisdom writings/works which
could/would have lead to very different horizons, through the overcoming in a
traditional sense of intellectualistic, anarchic individualism."
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <ouro_boros@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You have retyped the passage from the Arktos edition incorrectly. It
actually reads: "And while I recognised the validity of Catholicism as a
positive religion, I also personally witnessed the disgraceful effects of its
dissolution into emotional, sentimental and moralistic forms in the context of
modern bourgeois society..." So I don't see where the difference is between your
preferred translation and what is printed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Evola" <evola_as_he_is@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No matter how unambiguous grammatically, how clear lexically, J. Evola's
prose on Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular tends, who knows
why, to excite the imagination of some translators at the expense of the actual
content. The elegant English translation of 'Il Cammino del cinabro' published
by Arktos in 2009, which we have finally just started to read, does not
constitute an exception : the Italian author makes it clear in the first chapter
that "Circa il cattolicesimo in quanto, in generale, religione positiva, si
manifesterano anche nel mio caso gli effetti deprecabili del suo essersi ormai
ridotto a forme devozionale..." : "With respect to Catholicism as a positive
religion in general, I also personally witnessed the disgraceful effects of its
dissolution into emotional forms...", translated in the Arktos edition, who
knows why, as "And while I recognized the validity of Christianity as a positive
religion, I also personally witnessed the disgraceful effects of its dissolution
into emotional forms..." (p. 9), which is an utter misinterpration, as regards
the first clause.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




Mon Jul 2, 2012 10:20 pm

evola_as_he_is
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No matter how unambiguous grammatically, how clear lexically, J. Evola's prose on Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular tends, who knows why,...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Jun 28, 2012
3:15 pm

You have retyped the passage from the Arktos edition incorrectly. It actually reads: "And while I recognised the validity of Catholicism as a positive...
Michael
ouro_boros Offline Send Email
Jul 1, 2012
1:10 am

Of course, you don't see the difference. J. Evola writes : "With respect to Catholicism as a positive religion in general, I also personally witnessed the...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Jul 1, 2012
11:00 am

As for your first accusation, the passage in Italian reads: "Circa il cattolicesimo in quanto, in genere, religione positiva, si manifestarono anche nel mio...
Michael
ouro_boros Offline Send Email
Jul 2, 2012
7:40 pm

There does not seem to be any limit to your bad faith. In a translation that will be undertaken of the first chapter of 'Il Cammino del cinabro" in the manly...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Jul 2, 2012
10:21 pm

You have your interpretations. Our translator has his. Nothing you have posted has convinced me that our translation is in need of rectification, whatever...
Michael
ouro_boros Offline Send Email
Jul 3, 2012
12:41 pm

It is evident that EAHI's translations are superior; more informed and authentic. For example, why do you say there is no difference in meaning between "And...
sithwalker Offline Send Email Jul 3, 2012
8:18 pm

It is not at all obvious to me that EAHI's translations are "superior." Nor have I become "irrational." He's only discussed a few phrases from the first...
Michael Lord
ouro_boros Offline Send Email
Jul 4, 2012
10:56 am

The difference is indeed significant, especially as J. Evola's position on Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular is a sensitive subject....
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Jul 4, 2012
4:49 pm

I will ask our translator about this passage. He also had second thoughts about some of your earlier criticisms. He wrote: "1) "I was able to..." instead of "I...
Michael Lord
ouro_boros Offline Send Email
Jul 4, 2012
5:42 pm

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