Religion

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  • kshonan88
    Is religion genetic? or at the least survive as memes? Or is it completely a matter of choice? If from a long line of descendants of one religion, one of them
    Message 1 of 52 , Dec 3, 2005
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      Is religion genetic? or at the least survive as memes? Or is it
      completely a matter of choice?

      If from a long line of descendants of one religion, one of them
      suddenly switches to another, can we say he still has the blood of the
      former religion? In such cases, can religion act as hereditary markers?

      Can religion transform us genetically in any way?

      Thank you.
    • Rowan Berkeley
      well, in amplification of the qualitative idea of cruor , which is a hereditary spiritual correlative of the blood (i.e. a sort of astral fluid that is passed
      Message 2 of 52 , Dec 3, 2005
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        well, in amplification of the qualitative idea of 'cruor', which is a hereditary spiritual correlative of
        the blood (i.e. a sort of astral fluid that is passed down with the blood plasm or genes) there is what
        I would describe as a quantitative aspect to Guénonian metaphysics - namely, the 'degree of
        materialisation' of the human species or its sub-species over time. If some sub-species ('races') have
        progressed further in the direction of 'materialisation' than others, then this would be a result of the
        degeneration of their spirituality, i.e., their 'religion'. How one would detect this increased
        'materialisation' I don't know - there would be as it were less aura to their blood corpuscles, or
        something.




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      • Troy Southgate
        Politics can also be propagated by something approaching a religious fervour. Many people have compared Christianity and Marxism by examining key stages in
        Message 3 of 52 , Dec 3, 2005
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          Politics can also be propagated by something approaching a religious fervour. Many people have compared Christianity and Marxism by examining key stages in their development that contain similar aspects:

          Eden - Primitive Communism
          Passion of Christ - Growth of Capitalism
          Second Coming - Revolution
          Heaven - Communist Utopia

          Two more important factors come to mind:

          a) Both follow the linear interpretation of history.
          b) Both were founded by the same people.



          kshonan88 <kshonan88@...> wrote:
          Show message history
          Is religion genetic? or at the least survive as memes? Or is it
          completely a matter of choice?

          If from a long line of descendants of one religion, one of them
          suddenly switches to another, can we say he still has the blood of the
          former religion? In such cases, can religion act as hereditary markers?

          Can religion transform us genetically in any way?

          Thank you.








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        • evola_as_he_is
          In ancient Rome, religion was indissociable from race : This religion could be propagated only by generation. The father, in giving life to his son, gave
          Message 4 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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            In ancient Rome, 'religion' was indissociable from race : "This
            religion could be propagated only by generation. The father, in
            giving life to his son, gave him at the same time his creed, his
            worship, the right to continue the sacred fire, to offer the funeral
            meal, to pronounce the formula of prayers. Generation established a
            mysterious bond between the infant, who was born to life, and all the
            gods of the family. Indeed, these gods were his family - theoi
            eggeneis ; they were of his blood - theoi sunaimoi" (Fustel de
            Coulanges). This "domestic religion was transmitted only from male to
            male". No one ever 'converted' to the Roman religion. No one would
            have been allowed to do it. W don't think that we are going too far
            in saying that it wouldn't even have occurred to anyone to 'convert'
            to it, nor would it have occurred to any Roman to let anyone convert
            to it. The same thing applied to any other 'religion' in the Nordic-
            Aryan world.

            Religion started to dissociate from race with the coming of
            Christianity, for which, as is well-known, "Here there is no Greek or
            Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or
            free, but Christ is all, and is in all". From then on, any kind of
            conversion became possible. In this respect, Christianity can be
            considered both as a consequence and as a cause : as a consequence,
            because, as is also well-known, most of those who converted to it in
            the beginning were people without racial background, with neither
            hearth nor home, namely the dregs of Roman society, for whom belief,
            feelings, devotion took the upper hand on rites which they didn't
            have and whose meaning and rôle they couldn't understand. As a cause,
            because it contributed to the increasing spiritual uprooting of those
            who converted to it.

            Nowadays, religion is a matter of personal choice to a large extent,
            in a sense that, if, at birth, one is assigned de facto the religion
            of one's parents, one can change religion, at will, later. In the
            modern world, there is even an increase in conversions, not only of
            Westerners to Islam, Buddhism, and so on, but also, for instance,
            (mass) conversions of Hindus to Buddhism, etc.
            Basically, 'conversion' seems to be the key-word of today, both in
            the religious field and at the stock-exchange. Not to mention re-
            conversion, multi-conversion, and - let's put it this way - pluri-
            conversion, of which Guénon showed us an example, by embracing Sufism
            as he was still a Catholic, if it is true that, to be initiated to
            Sufism, one needs to convert to Islam first ( we have asked various
            people who are supposed to be qualified to confirm or to infirm it,
            but we only got vague and inconclusive answers).

            It doesn't mean that that personal choice is always dictated by
            contingent and superficial reasons. After all, it may be that, by
            converting, for instance, to Islam, the Westerners who do it only
            yield to the call of their race of the soul and/or of their race of
            the spirit, which, in their case, is of a Semitic nature.

            Another clue is given by Evola in this respect in 'Presentation of
            the Jewish problem', when he points out, with respect to the Jew,
            that "the persistence of an idea, of an attitude, of a belief through
            generations ends up finding expression in an instinct, in something
            which penetrates into the blood, lives and acts in the blood, and, in
            many cases, completely irrespective of everything that the
            individual, as reflexive consciousness, thinks and believes he wants".




            --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "kshonan88" <kshonan88@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Is religion genetic? or at the least survive as memes? Or is it
            > completely a matter of choice?
            >
            > If from a long line of descendants of one religion, one of them
            > suddenly switches to another, can we say he still has the blood of
            the
            > former religion? In such cases, can religion act as hereditary
            markers?
            Show message history
            >
            > Can religion transform us genetically in any way?
            >
            > Thank you.
            >
          • Rowan Berkeley
            yes, well on those terms, you have no argument against the jews, who have developed from whatever heterogenous genetic basis an equally exclusive cult of
            Message 5 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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              yes, well on those terms, you have no argument against the jews, who have developed from whatever
              heterogenous genetic basis an equally exclusive cult of heredity.




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            • evola_as_he_is
              It is in the nature of fire to burn, and yet no one sensible will blame the fire for burning ; the fact remains nonetheless that those who do not want to be
              Message 6 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                "It is in the nature of fire to burn, and yet no one sensible will
                blame the fire for burning ; the fact remains nonetheless that those
                who do not want to be burnt will take suitable measures and will
                limit or paralyse the power which proceeds not so much from
                the 'intention' of the fire as from its nature".

                Julius Evola, 'Presentation of the Jewish Problem' (
                http://thompkins_cariou.tripod.com/id16.html )


                --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                >
                > yes, well on those terms, you have no argument against the jews,
                who have developed from whatever
                > heterogenous genetic basis an equally exclusive cult of heredity.
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Rowan Berkeley
                But again like so many of Evola s clichés this one sounds good but contains no actual data. It is the nature of fire to burn, of water to moisten, etcetera,
                Message 7 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                  But again like so many of Evola's clichés this one sounds good but contains no actual data. It is the
                  nature of fire to burn, of water to moisten, etcetera, so what? Show us the factual difference between
                  the jew and the aryan, instead of playing with abstractions. In my view racial mysticism is a a dead end.
                  It is doubtless the case that for whatever reasons (about which the individual is free to form any
                  fantasy he wishes) the jews have become the masters of global speculative finance - so let's set our
                  political sights against speculative finance, instead of chasing racial moonbeams.




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                • evola_as_he_is
                  Wasn t it you who, a few days ago, condescended to draw our attention to the fact that Cruor is by definition indemonstrable and, not content with this,
                  Message 8 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                    Wasn't it you who, a few days ago, condescended to draw our attention
                    to the fact that "'Cruor' is by definition indemonstrable" and, not
                    content with this, spoke of "circular logic"? In fact, you are going
                    in circles, and, having sensed that your logic, which is not
                    necessary everyone's logic, nor, a fortiori, Logic with a capital L,
                    it's you who tries to evade the question by asking us to demonstrate
                    what cannot be demonstrated and what you know cannot be demonstrated
                    and what you ackowledged explicitly cannot be demonstrated, and, by
                    doing this, it's actually you who play with abstractions, all the
                    more as, unlike us, you never substantiate your personal views with
                    historical facts.

                    A mind possessed with the incubus of dialectics and the succubus of
                    logic may find truths such as "it is in the nature of fire to burn"
                    too simple. But that's the way it is, and there is nothing people can
                    do about it, whether people like it or not.

                    This forum was set up to discuss in a constructive manner the theory
                    of race put forward by Evola and which becomes more and more true as
                    years, as months, as days go by. If you think, or rather if you've
                    been led to think that that theory is mere 'fantasies', why on earth
                    do you waste your energy in making your point every two weeks or so
                    on this forum? Please let us know : we are deeply interested.

                    It's the third time that the following considerations are posted onto
                    this forum : "The reactions of this or that person towards the racist
                    idea are a sort of barometer which show us the 'quantity' of race
                    which is found in the person in question. The one who says yes to
                    racism is the one in whom race still lives : the one who has been
                    internally defeated by the anti-race and in whom the original forces
                    have been stifled by ethnic waste, by processes of cross-breeding and
                    degeneration, or by a bourgeois, weak, and intellectualistic style of
                    life which has lost for generations any contact with anything which
                    is really originary, opposes it and searches in all directions for
                    alibis in order to justify his aversion and discredit racism." They
                    shall be posted again each time we find it necessary, if you don't
                    mind.

                    Finally, this forum is especially designed for people who say yes to
                    racism, and not only intellectually. The rest is free to leave it.



                    --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                    <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > But again like so many of Evola's clichés this one sounds good but
                    contains no actual data. It is the
                    > nature of fire to burn, of water to moisten, etcetera, so what?
                    Show us the factual difference between
                    > the jew and the aryan, instead of playing with abstractions. In my
                    view racial mysticism is a a dead end.
                    > It is doubtless the case that for whatever reasons (about which the
                    individual is free to form any
                    > fantasy he wishes) the jews have become the masters of global
                    speculative finance - so let's set our
                    > political sights against speculative finance, instead of chasing
                    racial moonbeams.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Rowan Berkeley
                    Your reactions are exactly the same as those of the religious dogmatists I correspond with : we possess the mystic flame, love us or leave us, and if you
                    Message 9 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                      Your reactions are exactly the same as those of the religious dogmatists I correspond with : we possess
                      the mystic flame, love us or leave us, and if you leave, be assured that you are spiritually inferior to
                      us and merit the contempt of all our disciples, who are at least on the way to joining the superior ones.




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                    • kshonan88
                      ... namely, the degree of ... If some sub-species ( races ) have ... then this would be a result of the ... But why does that have to be an inverse relation?
                      Message 10 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                        --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                        <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:

                        > I would describe as a quantitative aspect to Guénonian metaphysics -
                        namely, the 'degree of
                        > materialisation' of the human species or its sub-species over time.
                        If some sub-species ('races') have
                        > progressed further in the direction of 'materialisation' than others,
                        then this would be a result of the
                        > degeneration of their spirituality, i.e., their 'religion'.


                        But why does that have to be an inverse relation?

                        The Rig-Vedic belief was greater and stronger spirituality "showed"
                        itself in materialisation, proofs of strength, visible creations of
                        power...

                        Thanks and regards.
                      • kshonan88
                        ... through generations ends up finding expression in an instinct, in something ... in ... wants . Thank you for all the excerpts and your views. I recalled
                        Message 11 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                          --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "evola_as_he_is"
                          <evola_as_he_is@y...> wrote:

                          > Another clue is given by Evola in this respect in 'Presentation of
                          > the Jewish problem', when he points out, with respect to the Jew,
                          > that "the persistence of an idea, of an attitude, of a belief
                          through generations ends up finding expression in an instinct, in
                          something
                          > which penetrates into the blood, lives and acts in the blood, and,
                          in
                          > many cases, completely irrespective of everything that the
                          > individual, as reflexive consciousness, thinks and believes he
                          wants".


                          Thank you for all the excerpts and your views.

                          I recalled today, Nietzsche wrote something similar in Beyond Good
                          and Evil, 231 -

                          "But at the bottom of us, `right down deep', there is, to be sure,
                          something unteachable, a granite stratum of spiritual fate, of
                          predetermined decision and answer to predetermined selected
                          questions. In the case of every cardinal problem there speaks an
                          unchangeable `this is I'; about man and woman, for example, a thinker
                          cannot relearn but only learn fully - only discover all that is `firm
                          and settled' within him on this subject. One sometimes comes upon
                          certain solutions to problems which inspire strong belief in us;
                          perhaps one thenceforth calls them one's `convictions'. Later - one
                          sees them only as footsteps to self-knowledge, signposts to the
                          problem which we are - more correctly, to the great stupidity which
                          we are, to our spiritual fate, to the unteachable `right down
                          deep'. ..."

                          Regards.
                        • kshonan88
                          ... fervour. Many people have compared Christianity and Marxism by ... Thank you, I get the drift. A valuable line of thought I didn t think about. Religion
                          Message 12 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                            --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, Troy Southgate
                            <arktoslondon@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Politics can also be propagated by something approaching a religious
                            fervour. Many people have compared Christianity and Marxism by
                            examining key stages in their development that contain similar aspects:
                            >
                            > Eden - Primitive Communism
                            > Passion of Christ - Growth of Capitalism
                            > Second Coming - Revolution
                            > Heaven - Communist Utopia

                            Thank you, I get the drift.
                            A valuable line of thought I didn't think about. Religion "actuali-zes"
                            itself through us through politics.

                            Regards.
                          • Troy Southgate
                            ... Yes, that s an interesting way of putting it. Incidentally, I first came across this comparison when I studied a Politics & Religion course under David
                            Message 13 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                              >Religion "actuali-zes" itself through us through politics.  

                              Yes, that's an interesting way of putting it. Incidentally, I first came across this comparison when I studied a Politics & Religion course under David McLellan, a leading expert on Karl Marx.





                              kshonan88 <kshonan88@...> wrote:
                              Show message history
                              --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, Troy Southgate
                              <arktoslondon@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Politics can also be propagated by something  approaching a religious
                              fervour. Many people have compared Christianity  and Marxism by
                              examining key stages in their development that contain  similar aspects:
                              >  
                              >   Eden - Primitive Communism
                              >   Passion of Christ - Growth of Capitalism
                              >   Second Coming - Revolution
                              >   Heaven - Communist Utopia

                              Thank you, I get the drift.
                              A valuable line of thought I didn't think about. Religion "actuali-zes"
                              itself through us through politics.   

                              Regards.







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                            • Savitar Devi
                              I I am inclined to agree that religion and race would be associated on some level. Along similar lines, I have begun speculating that if the corruption of
                              Message 14 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                                I
                                I am inclined to agree that religion and race would be associated on some level.
                                 
                                Along similar lines, I have begun speculating that if the corruption of race begins in its spirit, then does this not also imply that that it begins in a dwindling of belief or religion? This of course then implies that any racial disagreements are also religious/cultural/spiritual ones.
                                 
                                I don't see how associating religion and race nullifies any argument against the Jews - Judeo-Christian religions are totally alien to those traditions that follow an Aryan lineage - the Indo-European belief systems all have common factors which permits one to trace their mythological ancestry.

                                evola_as_he_is <evola_as_he_is@...> wrote:
                                Show message history

                                In ancient Rome, 'religion' was indissociable from race : "This
                                religion could be propagated only by generation. The father, in
                                giving life to his son, gave him at the same time his creed, his
                                worship, the right to continue the sacred fire, to offer the funeral
                                meal, to pronounce the formula of prayers. Generation established a
                                mysterious bond between the infant, who was born to life, and all the
                                gods of the family. Indeed, these gods were his family - theoi
                                eggeneis ; they were of his blood - theoi sunaimoi" (Fustel de
                                Coulanges). This "domestic religion was transmitted only from male to
                                male". No one ever 'converted' to the Roman religion. No one would
                                have been allowed to do it. W don't think that we are going too far
                                in saying that it wouldn't even have occurred to anyone to 'convert'
                                to it, nor would it have occurred to any Roman to let anyone convert
                                to it. The same thing applied to any other 'religion' in the Nordic-
                                Aryan world.


                                Three heavens there are; two Savitar's, adjacent:
                                In Yama's world is one, home of heroes.
                                As on a linch-pin, firm, rest things immortal:
                                He who hath known it, let him here declare it.
                                 
                                - Rig Veda I.35 (Griffith)


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                              • Troy Southgate
                                I wonder if a lack of faith and the concomitant growth of materialism can also be attributed to a certain race? And what about the Zoroastrian religion, which
                                Message 15 of 52 , Dec 4, 2005
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                                  I wonder if a lack of faith and the concomitant growth of materialism can also be attributed to a certain race?

                                  And what about the Zoroastrian religion, which is based on Aryan scriptures but contains important dualist facets which essentially predate the three main monotheistic - and Semitic - religions of the modern world?



                                  Savitar Devi <savitar_devi@...> wrote:
                                  Show message history
                                  I
                                  I am inclined to agree that religion and race would be associated on some level.
                                   
                                  Along similar lines, I have begun speculating that if the corruption of race begins in its spirit, then does this not also imply that that it begins in a dwindling of belief or religion? This of course then implies that any racial disagreements are also religious/cultural/spiritual ones.
                                   
                                  I don't see how associating religion and race nullifies any argument against the Jews - Judeo-Christian religions are totally alien to those traditions that follow an Aryan lineage - the Indo-European belief systems all have common factors which permits one to trace their mythological ancestry.

                                  evola_as_he_is <evola_as_he_is@...> wrote:

                                  In ancient Rome, 'religion' was indissociable from race : "This
                                  religion could be propagated only by generation. The father, in
                                  giving life to his son, gave him at the same time his creed, his
                                  worship, the right to continue the sacred fire, to offer the funeral
                                  meal, to pronounce the formula of prayers. Generation established a
                                  mysterious bond between the infant, who was born to life, and all the
                                  gods of the family. Indeed, these gods were his family - theoi
                                  eggeneis ; they were of his blood - theoi sunaimoi" (Fustel de
                                  Coulanges). This "domestic religion was transmitted only from male to
                                  male". No one ever 'converted' to the Roman religion. No one would
                                  have been allowed to do it. W don't think that we are going too far
                                  in saying that it wouldn't even have occurred to anyone to 'convert'
                                  to it, nor would it have occurred to any Roman to let anyone convert
                                  to it. The same thing applied to any other 'religion' in the Nordic-
                                  Aryan world.


                                  Three heavens there are; two Savitar's, adjacent:
                                  In Yama's world is one, home of heroes.
                                  As on a linch-pin, firm, rest things immortal:
                                  He who hath known it, let him here declare it.
                                   
                                  - Rig Veda I.35 (Griffith)

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                                • evola_as_he_is
                                  We grasp this opportunity you have given us to point at other significant differences between pre-Christian cults of Aryan nature and Christianity, already
                                  Message 16 of 52 , Dec 5, 2005
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                                    We grasp this opportunity you have given us to point at other
                                    significant differences between pre-Christian cults of Aryan nature
                                    and Christianity, already stressed by Evola, for isntance, in 'Revolt
                                    against the Modern World' : love, which is one of the key notions of
                                    the latter, was unknown to the former, which, as for it, was free
                                    from mysticism. The Roman cult was devoid of dogmas - and the mistake
                                    of the emperor Julian in his attempt to restore heathenism in Rome
                                    was precisely to try to give dogmas to it, in imitation of that
                                    Abrahamic religion.



                                    --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                                    <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Your reactions are exactly the same as those of the religious
                                    dogmatists I correspond with : we possess
                                    > the mystic flame, love us or leave us, and if you leave, be assured
                                    that you are spiritually inferior to
                                    > us and merit the contempt of all our disciples, who are at least on
                                    the way to joining the superior ones.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ___________________________________________________________
                                    > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all
                                    new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
                                    Show message history
                                    >
                                  • Rowan Berkeley
                                    oh, come on, what is the idea of aryanism if not a dogma? ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get?
                                    Message 17 of 52 , Dec 5, 2005
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                                      oh, come on, what is the idea of aryanism if not a dogma?



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                                    • Savitar Devi
                                      Zoroastrian - I m afraid you have found my academic Achille s Heel; I know sadly little of that religion I am afraid. Is Ahriman and Ahura Mazda part of that
                                      Message 18 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                        Zoroastrian - I'm afraid you have found my academic Achille's Heel; I know sadly little of that religion I am afraid. Is Ahriman and Ahura Mazda part of that duality or have I got that confused with something else? Perhaps the duality could result from tales of the conflict between the Asura and Devas? Some texts report of 'fallen Aryans' who adopted the ways of their enemies so maybe the Zoroastrians have a 'steeping stone' role? I'm afraid I have more questions than answers there without examining it closer.
                                         
                                        The growth of materialism and lack of faith - yes, in that certain race there is still faith, but it is the wrong kind of faith, the kind that is based more on dogma and servility than on the genuine acquisition of knowledge and experience.

                                        Troy Southgate <arktoslondon@...> wrote:
                                        Show message history
                                        I wonder if a lack of faith and the concomitant growth of materialism can also be attributed to a certain race?

                                        And what about the Zoroastrian religion, which is based on Aryan scriptures but contains important dualist facets which essentially predate the three main monotheistic - and Semitic - religions of the modern world?





                                        Three heavens there are; two Savitar's, adjacent:
                                        In Yama's world is one, home of heroes.
                                        As on a linch-pin, firm, rest things immortal:
                                        He who hath known it, let him here declare it.
                                         
                                        - Rig Veda I.35 (Griffith)


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                                      • Tony Ciopa
                                        An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet based on a misreading of a passage of “Heidnischer Imperialismus”. On page 252 of the
                                        Message 19 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                          An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet based on a misreading of a passage of “Heidnischer Imperialismus”.

                                           

                                          On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to translate this passage as such:

                                           

                                          <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older and more effective than that which the “faith” of Western man can lay claim to, a tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of power and vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete reality of what we have called “Wisdom”.>>

                                           

                                          This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the difference between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is absolutely foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other traditional metaphysician.

                                           

                                          It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty, metaphysical doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special power of "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers") who composed the Vedas.

                                           

                                          As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it would make the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in the rather odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the path that led to them.

                                           

                                          What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this “seeing” took him in a racial direction, whereas in Guenon’s case, it seems not to have done so.

                                           

                                        • vandermok
                                          Well, sometimes it s difficult to gain an insight into the Evola s mind. I do not have got the German version, but the incriminated Italian word is veggenza ;
                                          Message 20 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                            Well, sometimes it's difficult to gain an insight into the Evola's mind. I do not have got the German version, but the incriminated Italian word is "veggenza"; Evola uses many archaic terms, also Latinisms, hard to translate.

                                            I think the context shows that the meaning is simply 'being capable to see deeply' or 'to look against the light'. 

                                             

                                            Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:

                                            An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet based on a misreading of a passage of “Heidnischer Imperialismus”.

                                            On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to translate this passage as such:

                                            <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older and more effective than that which the “faith” of Western man can lay claim to, a tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of power and vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete reality of what we have called “Wisdom”.>>

                                            This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the difference between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is absolutely foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other traditional metaphysician.

                                            It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty, metaphysical doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special power of "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers") who composed the Vedas.

                                            As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it would make the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in the rather odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the path that led to them.

                                            What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this “seeing” took him in a racial direction, whereas in Guenon’s case, it seems not to have done so.

                                             

                                          • evola_as_he_is
                                            Some people tend to assume that fatti ed opere dipotenza e di veggenza don t exist and are mere fantasies , because those people are devoid of any potenza
                                            Message 21 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                              Some people tend to assume that "fatti ed opere dipotenza e di
                                              veggenza" don't exist and are mere 'fantasies', because those people
                                              are devoid of any "potenza" and "veggenza". Once again, it seems that
                                              even the mere intellectual understanding of Evola's work is largely
                                              determined by the presence or not in the reader of a quality which is
                                              not based on mere analytic intelligence and discursive reason.

                                              Now, where exactly on earth did you read that first draft of the
                                              translation of "Noi, per contro, fondandoci su una tradizione ben più
                                              antica ed effetiva di quella che non possa rivendicare la "fede"
                                              dell'uomo occidentale, su una tradizione non testimoniata su
                                              dottrine, ma per fatti ed opere di potenza e di veggenza, noi
                                              affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                              abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which "has been propagated on the
                                              Internet, and which is "based on a misreading of a passage
                                              of "Heidnischer Imperialismus""?

                                              Where?

                                              In that first draft, a part is missing, in the first sentence : "noi
                                              affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                              abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which would have been reinserted, if not
                                              at the first stage, at least at the second stage of proof-reading.
                                              This being said, 'noi affermiamo' means 'we affirm', 'we assert', and
                                              not "they affirm" ('essi/esse affermano').

                                              That misunderstanding is not based on a misreading : both
                                              translations - yours and the one which has been "propagated on the
                                              internet" -, convey the same meaning, that of the original, provided
                                              that you correct "they" and replace it with 'we'.




                                              --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
                                              <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet
                                              based on
                                              > a misreading of a passage of "Heidnischer Imperialismus".
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to translate
                                              this
                                              > passage as such:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older
                                              and more
                                              > effective than that which the "faith" of Western man can lay claim
                                              to, a
                                              > tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of power
                                              and
                                              > vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete
                                              reality of what
                                              > we have called "Wisdom".>>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the
                                              difference
                                              > between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is absolutely
                                              > foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other
                                              traditional
                                              > metaphysician.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind
                                              > ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty,
                                              metaphysical
                                              > doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special power
                                              of
                                              > "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers")
                                              who
                                              > composed the Vedas.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it
                                              would make
                                              > the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in the
                                              rather
                                              > odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the
                                              path that
                                              > led to them.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this "seeing" took him
                                              in a
                                              > racial direction, whereas in Guenon's case, it seems not to have
                                              done so.
                                              Show message history
                                              >
                                            • Rowan Berkeley
                                              I agree that the translation could be less florid, Tony, but it is the underlying thoughts I question : (1) the idea that there is a special spiritual heritage
                                              Message 22 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                I agree that the translation could be less florid, Tony, but it is the underlying thoughts I question :

                                                (1) the idea that there is a special spiritual heritage to aryanity

                                                (2) the idea that we are the inheritors of this aryanity

                                                -- both these ideas are subjective and arbitrary in my opinion.



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                                              • evola_as_he_is
                                                Veggenza is one of those Italian words which are extremely difficult to translate into English. Its synonyms in Italian are (needless to translate) :
                                                Message 23 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                  'Veggenza' is one of those Italian words which are extremely
                                                  difficult to translate into English. Its synonyms in Italian are
                                                  (needless to
                                                  translate) : 'precognizione', 'preveggenza' / 'chiaroveggenza',
                                                  'premonizione', 'divinazione'.


                                                  In the Italian/French dictionnary 'Il Boch', one of the most renowned
                                                  Italian dictionnaries, 'veggenza' is translated by 'clairvoyance',
                                                  which, in English, means 'perceptiveness', 'clear-sightedness'. Yet,
                                                  the English 'clairvoyance' renders quite well the idea,
                                                  as 'esp', 'extrasensory perception', 'second sight'. Wouldn't you say?

                                                  In any case, whatever word is chosen to translate 'veggenza', it's
                                                  got to convey the idea of a special power hold by the rishis, and it
                                                  seems to us that that special power is often called 'clairvoyance'.

                                                  In any case, the translation of a text is the result of a long
                                                  maturation process.


                                                  --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "vandermok" <vandermok@l...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Well, sometimes it's difficult to gain an insight into the Evola's
                                                  mind. I do not have got the German version, but the incriminated
                                                  Italian word is "veggenza"; Evola uses many archaic terms, also
                                                  Latinisms, hard to translate.
                                                  >
                                                  > I think the context shows that the meaning is simply 'being capable
                                                  to see deeply' or 'to look against the light'.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet
                                                  based on a misreading of a passage of "Heidnischer Imperialismus".
                                                  >
                                                  > On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to translate
                                                  this passage as such:
                                                  >
                                                  > <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older
                                                  and more effective than that which the "faith" of Western man can lay
                                                  claim to, a tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works
                                                  of power and vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the
                                                  concrete reality of what we have called "Wisdom".>>
                                                  >
                                                  > This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the
                                                  difference between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is
                                                  absolutely foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any
                                                  other traditional metaphysician.
                                                  >
                                                  > It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind
                                                  ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty,
                                                  metaphysical doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a
                                                  special power of "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis
                                                  (literally "seers") who composed the Vedas.
                                                  >
                                                  > As such, this claim is hardly outrageous . to misunderstand it
                                                  would make the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts
                                                  one in the rather odd position of accepting their conclusions while
                                                  rejecting the path that led to them.
                                                  >
                                                  > What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this "seeing" took him
                                                  in a racial direction, whereas in Guenon's case, it seems not to have
                                                  done so.
                                                  Show message history
                                                  >
                                                • Rowan Berkeley
                                                  re : clairvoyance , which, in English, means perceptiveness , clear-sightedness . Yet, the English clairvoyance renders quite well the idea, as esp ,
                                                  Message 24 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                    re : "'clairvoyance', which, in English, means 'perceptiveness', 'clear-sightedness'. Yet, the English
                                                    'clairvoyance' renders quite well the idea, as 'esp', 'extrasensory perception', 'second sight'. Wouldn't
                                                    you say? In any case, whatever word is chosen to translate 'veggenza', it's got to convey the idea of a
                                                    special power hold by the rishis, and it seems to us that that special power is often called
                                                    'clairvoyance'."

                                                    -- 'clairvoyance' ONLY means 'extrasensory (visual) perception' in English. However, the supposed special
                                                    powers of the rishis are to me entirely mythical anyway, and the question of 'clairvoyance' is merely
                                                    symptomatic of Evola's specious supernaturalism.






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                                                  • vandermok
                                                    In the most authoritative Italian dictionaries like the Zingarelli, the term veggenza is in fact considered the archaic form of the modern chiaroveggenza ,
                                                    Message 25 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                      In the most authoritative Italian dictionaries like the Zingarelli, the term 'veggenza' is in fact considered the archaic form of the modern 'chiaroveggenza', but curiously, in my English dictionaries, the word 'veggenza' is more willingly translated as 'prophecy'. A subtle difference of view, innit?
                                                       
                                                       
                                                       
                                                      'Veggenza' is one of those Italian words which are extremely
                                                      difficult to translate into English. Its synonyms in Italian are
                                                      (needless to
                                                      translate) : 'precognizione', 'preveggenza' / 'chiaroveggenza',
                                                      'premonizione', 'divinazione'.


                                                      In the Italian/French dictionnary 'Il Boch', one of the most renowned
                                                      Italian dictionnaries, 'veggenza' is translated by 'clairvoyance',
                                                      which, in English, means 'perceptiveness', 'clear-sightedness'. Yet,
                                                      the English 'clairvoyance' renders quite well the idea,
                                                      as 'esp', 'extrasensory perception', 'second sight'. Wouldn't you say?

                                                      In any case, whatever word is chosen to translate 'veggenza', it's
                                                      got to convey the idea of a special power hold by the rishis, and it
                                                      seems to us that that special power is often called 'clairvoyance'.

                                                      In any case, the translation of a text is the result of a long
                                                      maturation process.


                                                    • evola_as_he_is
                                                      We could discourse for hours, for days, for months, on how to translate accurately veggenza into English, basing ourselves either on one of the most
                                                      Message 26 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                        We could discourse for hours, for days, for months, on how to
                                                        translate accurately 'veggenza' into English, basing ourselves either
                                                        on "one of the most renowned Italian dictionaries" or on the "most
                                                        authoritative Italian dictionaries", whose authors have probably
                                                        never heard of the rishis.

                                                        Whatever word is chosen to translate 'veggenza', it's got to convey
                                                        the idea of a special power hold by the rishis. To convey this idea,
                                                        the English language has more than one word.





                                                        --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "vandermok" <vandermok@l...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > In the most authoritative Italian dictionaries like the Zingarelli,
                                                        the term 'veggenza' is in fact considered the archaic form of the
                                                        modern 'chiaroveggenza', but curiously, in my English dictionaries,
                                                        the word 'veggenza' is more willingly translated as 'prophecy'. A
                                                        subtle difference of view, innit?
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > in evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > <evola_as_he_is@y...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > 'Veggenza' is one of those Italian words which are extremely
                                                        > difficult to translate into English. Its synonyms in Italian are
                                                        > (needless to
                                                        > translate) : 'precognizione', 'preveggenza' / 'chiaroveggenza',
                                                        > 'premonizione', 'divinazione'.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > In the Italian/French dictionnary 'Il Boch', one of the most
                                                        renowned
                                                        > Italian dictionnaries, 'veggenza' is translated by 'clairvoyance',
                                                        > which, in English, means 'perceptiveness', 'clear-sightedness'.
                                                        Yet,
                                                        > the English 'clairvoyance' renders quite well the idea,
                                                        > as 'esp', 'extrasensory perception', 'second sight'. Wouldn't you
                                                        say?
                                                        >
                                                        > In any case, whatever word is chosen to translate 'veggenza', it's
                                                        > got to convey the idea of a special power hold by the rishis, and
                                                        it
                                                        Show message history
                                                        > seems to us that that special power is often called 'clairvoyance'.
                                                        >
                                                        > In any case, the translation of a text is the result of a long
                                                        > maturation process.
                                                        >
                                                      • vandermok
                                                        Joseph Campbell and Hans Zimmer hypothesized that some contradictions of the Zoroastrianism show just the presence of a pre-Aryan matriarchal cult in Iran.
                                                        Message 27 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                          Joseph Campbell and Hans Zimmer hypothesized that some contradictions of the Zoroastrianism  show just the presence of a pre-Aryan matriarchal cult in Iran.
                                                          You can find more in 'Corps spirituel et Terre céleste' by Henry Corbin, Buchet-Chastel, Paris 1979, knowing the perspective is the one of Eranos: Hillman, Neumann, Miller....this is Jewish made, oh sorry: Swiss made. 
                                                           
                                                           
                                                           <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:
                                                           
                                                          Zoroastrian - I'm afraid you have found my academic Achille's Heel; I know sadly little of that religion I am afraid. Is Ahriman and Ahura Mazda part of that duality or have I got that confused with something else? Perhaps the duality could result from tales of the conflict between the Asura and Devas? Some texts report of 'fallen Aryans' who adopted the ways of their enemies so maybe the Zoroastrians have a 'steeping stone' role? I'm afraid I have more questions than answers there without examining it closer.
                                                           
                                                          The growth of materialism and lack of faith - yes, in that certain race there is still faith, but it is the wrong kind of faith, the kind that is based more on dogma and servility than on the genuine acquisition of knowledge and experience.

                                                        • Tony Ciopa
                                                          To try to put this to rest, Garzanti has this definition of “veggenza”: 1 (rar.) facoltà di vedere 2 (fig.) capacità di prevedere il futuro: la veggenza
                                                          Message 28 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                            To try to put this to rest, Garzanti has this definition of “veggenza”:

                                                             

                                                            1 (rar.) facoltà di vedere
                                                            2 (fig.) capacità di prevedere il futuro: la veggenza dei profeti.

                                                             

                                                            Unfortunately, in English, clairvoyance evokes images of gypsies and crystal balls, that is, it implies the “seeing” of contingent things, so we prefer the first (and primary) definition of the term.

                                                             

                                                            Clearly, Evola, in the context of the quote, was not concerned with contingencies at all, but on the level of gnosis (or Sapienza) that transcends any such consideration.

                                                             

                                                            Mr. Berkeley’s comments, both here and elsewhere, simply disqualify him from any intelligent discussion of this topic.

                                                             

                                                          • evola_as_he_is
                                                            You still haven t understood the spirit of this list. The welcome message says : Not a moment of our time will be wasted upon the demon of dialectics ,
                                                            Message 29 of 52 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                              You still haven't understood the spirit of this list.

                                                              The welcome message says : "Not a moment of our time will be wasted
                                                              upon the "demon of dialectics", rambling about questions which were
                                                              solved ages ago. For instance, we do not intend to waste time trying
                                                              to determine whether or not this or that ethnic, political, economic,
                                                              or social entity or force played a part in the movement of subversion
                                                              which led to the destruction of the traditional Western world. Our
                                                              aim will be, rather, to study the method by which this subversion was
                                                              conducted by this well-known entity, according to what strategies,
                                                              and by means of what tactics". In the same way, we do not intend to
                                                              waste time trying to determine whether or not Aryanity, whose
                                                              concept, by the way, didn't exist in ancient Rome, exists. Instead,
                                                              we work on the principle that Aryanity does exist, that there is a
                                                              special spiritual heritage to Aryanity, and, on that basis, we study
                                                              it, especially through the works of an author who was a living proof
                                                              of the reality of Aryanity. Call it a 'subjective idea' if that makes
                                                              you feel better.

                                                              Is it fu-lly understood?



                                                              --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                                                              <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > I agree that the translation could be less florid, Tony, but it is
                                                              the underlying thoughts I question :
                                                              >
                                                              > (1) the idea that there is a special spiritual heritage to aryanity
                                                              >
                                                              > (2) the idea that we are the inheritors of this aryanity
                                                              >
                                                              > -- both these ideas are subjective and arbitrary in my opinion.
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
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                                                              > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all
                                                              new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
                                                              Show message history
                                                              >
                                                            • Tony Ciopa
                                                              I never even mentioned the existence of a “rough draft”, both because it seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication and also
                                                              Message 30 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                I never even mentioned the existence of a “rough draft”, both because it seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication and also because it was accompanied by some unflattering remarks that revealed more about the character of the poster than of the target of the remarks. Besides, I did not want to encourage a private dispute that was made public under the pretext of a critique of Evola.

                                                                 

                                                                The draft was posted to the yahoo [evola] group, which I seldom read anymore. I stumbled upon the quote, because I was curious about the cause of the sudden drop in quality of some of the recent posts to this group. I did feel the need to correct such a shocking and fundamental misunderstanding of Evola – that is why I brought the issue up; the existence of a rough draft was only incidental.

                                                                 

                                                                My text has a typographical error – it reads “affermiano”, which could be taken either as “affermiamo” or “affermano”, depending on where the error lies.

                                                                So I quickly and mistakenly took it as “the fatti ed opera affirm [to us] …”. But if the correct text has “affermiamo”, that would make more sense. Thanks for noticing that.

                                                                (It does read “affermiamo” in the original Italian edition on page 115.)

                                                                 

                                                                Finally, I wasn’t accusing you of the misreading. The misreading clearly originated in the gentleman who instigated this exchange.

                                                                [Note that I referred to it as a “misreading”, not a “mistranslation” – the translation was clear to anyone who is actually familiar with Evola.]

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                                From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of evola_as_he_is
                                                                Sent:
                                                                Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:13 AM
                                                                To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                Subject: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus

                                                                 


                                                                Some people tend to assume that "fatti ed opere dipotenza e di
                                                                veggenza" don't exist and are mere 'fantasies', because those people
                                                                are devoid of any "potenza" and "veggenza". Once again, it seems that
                                                                even the mere intellectual understanding of Evola's work is largely
                                                                determined by the presence or not in the reader of a quality which is
                                                                not based on mere analytic intelligence and discursive reason.

                                                                Now, where exactly on earth did you read that first draft of the
                                                                translation of "Noi, per contro, fondandoci su una tradizione ben più
                                                                antica ed effetiva di quella che non possa rivendicare la "fede"
                                                                dell'uomo occidentale, su una tradizione non testimoniata su
                                                                dottrine, ma per fatti ed opere di potenza e di veggenza, noi
                                                                affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                                                abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which "has been propagated on the
                                                                Internet, and which is "based on a misreading of a passage
                                                                of "Heidnischer Imperialismus""?

                                                                Where?

                                                                In that first draft, a part is missing, in the first sentence : "noi
                                                                affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                                                abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which would have been reinserted, if not
                                                                at the first stage, at least at the second stage of proof-reading.
                                                                This being said, 'noi affermiamo' means 'we affirm', 'we assert', and
                                                                not "they affirm" ('essi/esse affermano').

                                                                That misunderstanding is not based on a misreading : both
                                                                translations - yours and the one which has been "propagated on the
                                                                internet" -, convey the same meaning, that of the original, provided
                                                                that you correct "they" and replace it with 'we'.




                                                                --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
                                                                <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the Internet
                                                                based on
                                                                > a misreading of a passage of "Heidnischer Imperialismus".
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to translate
                                                                this
                                                                > passage as such:
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older
                                                                and more
                                                                > effective than that which the "faith" of Western man can lay claim
                                                                to, a
                                                                > tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of power
                                                                and
                                                                > vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete
                                                                reality of what
                                                                > we have called "Wisdom".>>
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the
                                                                difference
                                                                > between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is absolutely
                                                                > foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other
                                                                traditional
                                                                > metaphysician.
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind
                                                                > ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty,
                                                                metaphysical
                                                                > doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special power
                                                                of
                                                                > "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers")
                                                                who
                                                                > composed the Vedas.
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it
                                                                would make
                                                                > the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in the
                                                                rather
                                                                > odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the
                                                                path that
                                                                > led to them.
                                                                >

                                                                >
                                                                > What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this "seeing" took him
                                                                in a
                                                                > racial direction, whereas in Guenon's case, it seems not to have
                                                                done so.
                                                                >







                                                              • Savitar Devi
                                                                In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer s works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found? vandermok wrote: Joseph Campbell and
                                                                Message 31 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                  In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found?
                                                                   


                                                                  vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote:
                                                                  Show message history
                                                                  Joseph Campbell and Hans Zimmer hypothesized that some contradictions of the Zoroastrianism  show just the presence of a pre-Aryan matriarchal cult in Iran.
                                                                  You can find more in 'Corps spirituel et Terre céleste' by Henry Corbin, Buchet-Chastel, Paris 1979, knowing the perspective is the one of Eranos: Hillman, Neumann, Miller....this is Jewish made, oh sorry: Swiss made. 
                                                                   
                                                                   
                                                                   <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:
                                                                   
                                                                  Zoroastrian - I'm afraid you have found my academic Achille's Heel; I know sadly little of that religion I am afraid. Is Ahriman and Ahura Mazda part of that duality or have I got that confused with something else? Perhaps the duality could result from tales of the conflict between the Asura and Devas? Some texts report of 'fallen Aryans' who adopted the ways of their enemies so maybe the Zoroastrians have a 'steeping stone' role? I'm afraid I have more questions than answers there without examining it closer.
                                                                   
                                                                  The growth of materialism and lack of faith - yes, in that certain race there is still faith, but it is the wrong kind of faith, the kind that is based more on dogma and servility than on the genuine acquisition of knowledge and experience.




                                                                  Three heavens there are; two Savitar's, adjacent:
                                                                  In Yama's world is one, home of heroes.
                                                                  As on a linch-pin, firm, rest things immortal:
                                                                  He who hath known it, let him here declare it.
                                                                   
                                                                  - Rig Veda I.35 (Griffith)


                                                                  Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner now.

                                                                • vandermok
                                                                  I believe, Tony, you did not intend to stir up a nest of hornets; anyway just a little addition. The whole chapter has a series of plural verbs: affermiamo,
                                                                  Message 32 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                    I believe, Tony, you did not intend to stir up a nest of hornets; anyway just a little addition.

                                                                     

                                                                    The whole chapter has a series of plural verbs: affermiamo, sosteniamo, etc… because Evola normally uses the "pluralis maiestatis" like Guénon, so doubts cannot exist.

                                                                    We see the German version has "la fede dell'uomo occidentale" (the faith of the western man) instead of the Italian "l'eresia cristiana" (Christian heresy), an adaptation to the German mentality, while evidently the term "veggenza" did not require such a change, in spite of what Evola wrote on the northern race in 'Il Mito del sangue' (objective, realistic, cold, and so on). Then the word cannot have only an occultist connotation, but voices something more.

                                                                     

                                                                    Sometimes also the best gentlemen can suffer of claustrophobia.

                                                                     
                                                                     
                                                                    Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:

                                                                    I never even mentioned the existence of a “rough draft”, both because it seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication and also because it was accompanied by some unflattering remarks that revealed more about the character of the poster than of the target of the remarks. Besides, I did not want to encourage a private dispute that was made public under the pretext of a critique of Evola.

                                                                    The draft was posted to the yahoo [evola] group, which I seldom read anymore. I stumbled upon the quote, because I was curious about the cause of the sudden drop in quality of some of the recent posts to this group. I did feel the need to correct such a shocking and fundamental misunderstanding of Evola – that is why I brought the issue up; the existence of a rough draft was only incidental.

                                                                    My text has a typographical error – it reads “affermiano”, which could be taken either as “affermiamo” or “affermano”, depending on where the error lies.

                                                                    So I quickly and mistakenly took it as “the fatti ed opera affirm [to us] …”. But if the correct text has “affermiamo”, that would make more sense. Thanks for noticing that.

                                                                    (It does read “affermiamo” in the original Italian edition on page 115.)

                                                                    Finally, I wasn’t accusing you of the misreading. The misreading clearly originated in the gentleman who instigated this exchange.

                                                                    [Note that I referred to it as a “misreading”, not a “mistranslation” – the translation was clear to anyone who is actually familiar with Evola.]

                                                                     

                                                                  • vandermok
                                                                    J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951. Also H.S. Nyberg, Die Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938. I have not them;
                                                                    Message 33 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                      J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951.
                                                                      Also H.S. Nyberg, Die  Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938.
                                                                      I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of Corbin. 
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:
                                                                       
                                                                      In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found?
                                                                    • Troy Southgate
                                                                      I d be very interested to read more about this, too, if anyone else can provide quotations. vandermok wrote: J.
                                                                      Message 34 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                        I'd be very interested to read more about this, too, if anyone else can provide quotations.



                                                                        vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote:
                                                                        Show message history
                                                                        J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951.
                                                                        Also H.S. Nyberg, Die  Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938.
                                                                        I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of Corbin. 
                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                        <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:
                                                                         
                                                                        In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found?


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                                                                      • evola_as_he_is
                                                                        It reads affermiano , but we corrected spontaneously that typographical mistake in our previous message. In Italian, personal pronouns are not always
                                                                        Message 35 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                          It reads "affermiano", but we corrected spontaneously that
                                                                          typographical mistake in our previous message. In Italian, personal
                                                                          pronouns are not always necessary. Fortunately, here, "affermiano" is
                                                                          preceded by its pronoun personal, that is "noi", so that there is no
                                                                          ambiguity whatsoever as to the form of the verb.

                                                                          Typographical mistakes are always possible, and, as a matter of fact,
                                                                          happen, no matter how serious the publisher. Yet, there are limits to
                                                                          the number of typographical mistakes which can be tolerated in a
                                                                          book, limits which, when reached, not only give the impression that
                                                                          the work of edition was dealt with in an offhand manner, but make
                                                                          some passages obscure, not to say incomprehensible. The fourth
                                                                          edition of 'Imperialismo pagano', which comprises 'Imperialismo
                                                                          pagano' and its German version, 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', has
                                                                          reached those limits, it has even gone far beyond them. In short, it
                                                                          has beaten records in this respect : typographical mistakes,
                                                                          misprints, missing words, duplicated paragraphs and sentences, and so
                                                                          on. This is not so much a problem with 'Imperialismo pagano' , since
                                                                          you can always check its previous editions. As far as 'Heidnischer
                                                                          Imperialismus' is concerned, on the contrary, it is impossible,
                                                                          unless you are lucky enough to come across a second-hand copy of the
                                                                          first edition of that work, published by Centri Studi Tradizionali,
                                                                          Trevise, in 1991, and which is currently out-of-print. Of course, the
                                                                          original, 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', can still be checked, but
                                                                          Evola made it clear that he was not satisfied with the work of the
                                                                          German translator who would translate his works into German at that
                                                                          time, namely Friedrich Bauer.

                                                                          An Italian member of this forum, who never posts onto it, who has
                                                                          been reading again and again Evola's works for 40 years, and
                                                                          according to whom some passages were deliberately removed from some
                                                                          of Evola's books, especially from his books on race, after his death,
                                                                          would not hesitate to speak of 'sabotage' in this respect. What is
                                                                          certain, for instance, is that the comments which Evola made on
                                                                          Reghini in the second issue of Krur (February 1929) cannot be found
                                                                          in the various Italian editions of the writings of the 'Ur and Krur'
                                                                          group, nor can they be found in 'Introduction to Magic'. They shall
                                                                          be posted onto this list in due time.

                                                                          While we are at it, it should be stressed that Evola never forbid
                                                                          expressly and legally the re-publication of 'Imperialismo pagano',
                                                                          contrary to the assumptions made on the InterNet by some 'Mrs I-know-
                                                                          everything' on the basis of partial information which they got from
                                                                          an introduction written to 'Men among the Ruins' by the current
                                                                          translator of Evola's work in German. The problem is far more complex
                                                                          than assumed. The man who was in charge of Fondazione Evola for
                                                                          years, Gianfranco de Turris, who, a few years after having upheld
                                                                          that debatable thesis in 'Elogio e difesa di Julius Evola', accepted
                                                                          to be the editor of the fourth edition of 'Imperialismo pagano', has
                                                                          come to realise it.



                                                                          --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
                                                                          <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                          >
                                                                          > I never even mentioned the existence of a "rough draft", both
                                                                          because it
                                                                          > seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for publication
                                                                          and also
                                                                          > because it was accompanied by some unflattering remarks that
                                                                          revealed more
                                                                          > about the character of the poster than of the target of the remarks.
                                                                          > Besides, I did not want to encourage a private dispute that was
                                                                          made public
                                                                          > under the pretext of a critique of Evola.
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > The draft was posted to the yahoo [evola] group, which I seldom read
                                                                          > anymore. I stumbled upon the quote, because I was curious about the
                                                                          cause of
                                                                          > the sudden drop in quality of some of the recent posts to this
                                                                          group. I did
                                                                          > feel the need to correct such a shocking and fundamental
                                                                          misunderstanding of
                                                                          > Evola – that is why I brought the issue up; the existence of a
                                                                          rough draft
                                                                          > was only incidental.
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > My text has a typographical error – it reads "affermiano", which
                                                                          could be
                                                                          > taken either as "affermiamo" or "affermano", depending on where the
                                                                          error
                                                                          > lies.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > So I quickly and mistakenly took it as "the fatti ed opera affirm
                                                                          [to us]
                                                                          > …". But if the correct text has "affermiamo", that would make more
                                                                          sense.
                                                                          > Thanks for noticing that.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > (It does read "affermiamo" in the original Italian edition on page
                                                                          115.)
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Finally, I wasn't accusing you of the misreading. The misreading
                                                                          clearly
                                                                          > originated in the gentleman who instigated this exchange.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > [Note that I referred to it as a "misreading", not
                                                                          a "mistranslation" – the
                                                                          > translation was clear to anyone who is actually familiar with
                                                                          Evola.]
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                                          > From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                          > On Behalf Of evola_as_he_is
                                                                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 5:13 AM
                                                                          > To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                          > Subject: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Some people tend to assume that "fatti ed opere dipotenza e di
                                                                          > veggenza" don't exist and are mere 'fantasies', because those
                                                                          people
                                                                          > are devoid of any "potenza" and "veggenza". Once again, it seems
                                                                          that
                                                                          > even the mere intellectual understanding of Evola's work is largely
                                                                          > determined by the presence or not in the reader of a quality which
                                                                          is
                                                                          > not based on mere analytic intelligence and discursive reason.
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Now, where exactly on earth did you read that first draft of the
                                                                          > translation of "Noi, per contro, fondandoci su una tradizione ben
                                                                          più
                                                                          > antica ed effetiva di quella che non possa rivendicare la "fede"
                                                                          > dell'uomo occidentale, su una tradizione non testimoniata su
                                                                          > dottrine, ma per fatti ed opere di potenza e di veggenza, noi
                                                                          > affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                                                          > abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which "has been propagated on the
                                                                          > Internet, and which is "based on a misreading of a passage
                                                                          > of "Heidnischer Imperialismus""?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > Where?
                                                                          >
                                                                          > In that first draft, a part is missing, in the first
                                                                          sentence : "noi
                                                                          > affermiamo invece la possibilità e la realtà effetiva di cio' che
                                                                          > abbiamo chiamato Sapienza", which would have been reinserted, if
                                                                          not
                                                                          > at the first stage, at least at the second stage of proof-reading.
                                                                          > This being said, 'noi affermiamo' means 'we affirm', 'we assert',
                                                                          and
                                                                          > not "they affirm" ('essi/esse affermano').
                                                                          >
                                                                          > That misunderstanding is not based on a misreading : both
                                                                          > translations - yours and the one which has been "propagated on the
                                                                          > internet" -, convey the same meaning, that of the original,
                                                                          provided
                                                                          > that you correct "they" and replace it with 'we'.
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Ciopa"
                                                                          > <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > An unfortunate misunderstanding has been propagated on the
                                                                          Internet
                                                                          > based on
                                                                          > > a misreading of a passage of "Heidnischer Imperialismus".
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > On page 252 of the Mediterranee edition, we would like to
                                                                          translate
                                                                          > this
                                                                          > > passage as such:
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > <<We, on the contrary, basing ourselves on a tradition much older
                                                                          > and more
                                                                          > > effective than that which the "faith" of Western man can lay
                                                                          claim
                                                                          > to, a
                                                                          > > tradition not proved by doctrines, but by deeds and works of
                                                                          power
                                                                          > and
                                                                          > > vision, they affirm instead the possibility and the concrete
                                                                          > reality of what
                                                                          > > we have called "Wisdom".>>
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > This paragraph appears in the context of a discussion of the
                                                                          > difference
                                                                          > > between "knowledge" and "Wisdom" -- a distinction that is
                                                                          absolutely
                                                                          > > foundational to any understanding of Guénon, Evola, or any other
                                                                          > traditional
                                                                          > > metaphysician.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > It is simply the claim that there is a higher faculty of the mind
                                                                          > > ("intuition") than mere reason, and that without this faculty,
                                                                          > metaphysical
                                                                          > > doctrines simply cannot be understood. The claim to a special
                                                                          power
                                                                          > of
                                                                          > > "seeing" is similarly the claim of the rishis (literally "seers")
                                                                          > who
                                                                          > > composed the Vedas.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > As such, this claim is hardly outrageous … to misunderstand it
                                                                          > would make
                                                                          > > the works of Guenon and Evola opaque; to reject it puts one in
                                                                          the
                                                                          > rather
                                                                          > > odd position of accepting their conclusions while rejecting the
                                                                          > path that
                                                                          > > led to them.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > >
                                                                          > > What is more interesting is how, for Evola, this "seeing" took
                                                                          him
                                                                          > in a
                                                                          > > racial direction, whereas in Guenon's case, it seems not to have
                                                                          > done so.
                                                                          > >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > _____
                                                                          >
                                                                          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > * Visit your group "evola_as_he_is
                                                                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/evola_as_he_is> " on the web.
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                                          > evola_as_he_is-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                                          subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                                                          > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          >
                                                                          > _____
                                                                          >
                                                                        • Tony Ciopa
                                                                          To Whom It May Concern: Southgate would like someone else to do the research for him, since he does not feel up to doing it himself. He will then probably
                                                                          Message 36 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                            To Whom It May Concern:

                                                                             

                                                                            Southgate would like someone else to do the research for him, since he does not feel up to doing it himself.

                                                                            He will then probably cross-post it to all his other lists under his own name.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                            From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Troy Southgate
                                                                            Sent:
                                                                            Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:54 AM
                                                                            To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                            Subject: Re: [evola_as_he_is] Religion

                                                                             

                                                                            I'd be very interested to read more about this, too, if anyone else can provide quotations.



                                                                            vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote:

                                                                            J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951.

                                                                            Also H.S. Nyberg, Die  Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938.

                                                                            I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of Corbin. 

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found?

                                                                             

                                                                          • evola_as_he_is
                                                                            To be more specific, both Imperialismo pagano and Heidnischer Imperialismus have five chapters, of which four bear the same title : I. We, anti-Europeans
                                                                            Message 37 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                              To be more specific, both 'Imperialismo pagano' and 'Heidnischer
                                                                              Imperialismus' have five chapters, of which four bear the same
                                                                              title :

                                                                              I. 'We, anti-Europeans'
                                                                              II 'Conditions for Empire'
                                                                              III. 'The democratic Mistake'
                                                                              IV. 'The Roots of European Evil'

                                                                              In 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', the fifth chapter of 'Imperialismo
                                                                              pagano', 'Heathen values and Christian values', is called 'Our
                                                                              European Symbol'. Beyond this, there are major differences between
                                                                              both texts, and most readers agree that the German version is far
                                                                              more accomplished than the Italian one.

                                                                              Are you sure that 'H.I.' was designed to fit with the German
                                                                              mentality? Rather, wasn't it designed to capture the mind of the best
                                                                              elements in the German hierarchy of that time in the name of a
                                                                              synthesis between the German eagle and the Roman eagle?

                                                                              If 'veggenza', a word which Evola seldom used, doesn't only have
                                                                              occultist connotations in that excerpt from 'H.I.', what kind of
                                                                              other connotations does it have, then, according to you? Before
                                                                              speculating and worrying about the connotation(s) of a word,
                                                                              shouldn't we start with focusing on its denotation?


                                                                              --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "vandermok" <vandermok@l...>
                                                                              wrote:
                                                                              >
                                                                              > I believe, Tony, you did not intend to stir up a nest of hornets;
                                                                              anyway just a little addition.
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > The whole chapter has a series of plural verbs: affermiamo,
                                                                              sosteniamo, etc. because Evola normally uses the "pluralis
                                                                              maiestatis" like Guénon, so doubts cannot exist.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > We see the German version has "la fede dell'uomo occidentale" (the
                                                                              faith of the western man) instead of the Italian "l'eresia cristiana"
                                                                              (Christian heresy), an adaptation to the German mentality, while
                                                                              evidently the term "veggenza" did not require such a change, in spite
                                                                              of what Evola wrote on the northern race in 'Il Mito del sangue'
                                                                              (objective, realistic, cold, and so on). Then the word cannot have
                                                                              only an occultist connotation, but voices something more.
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Sometimes also the best gentlemen can suffer of claustrophobia.
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              >
                                                                              > In <evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                              > Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                              > I never even mentioned the existence of a "rough draft", both
                                                                              because it seemed to me to be a private matter never intended for
                                                                              publication and also because it was accompanied by some unflattering
                                                                              remarks that revealed more about the character of the poster than of
                                                                              the target of the remarks. Besides, I did not want to encourage a
                                                                              private dispute that was made public under the pretext of a critique
                                                                              of Evola.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > The draft was posted to the yahoo [evola] group, which I seldom
                                                                              read anymore. I stumbled upon the quote, because I was curious about
                                                                              the cause of the sudden drop in quality of some of the recent posts
                                                                              to this group. I did feel the need to correct such a shocking and
                                                                              fundamental misunderstanding of Evola - that is why I brought the
                                                                              issue up; the existence of a rough draft was only incidental.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > My text has a typographical error - it reads "affermiano", which
                                                                              could be taken either as "affermiamo" or "affermano", depending on
                                                                              where the error lies.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > So I quickly and mistakenly took it as "the fatti ed opera affirm
                                                                              [to us] .". But if the correct text has "affermiamo", that would make
                                                                              more sense. Thanks for noticing that.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > (It does read "affermiamo" in the original Italian edition on page
                                                                              115.)
                                                                              >
                                                                              > Finally, I wasn't accusing you of the misreading. The misreading
                                                                              clearly originated in the gentleman who instigated this exchange.
                                                                              >
                                                                              > [Note that I referred to it as a "misreading", not
                                                                              a "mistranslation" - the translation was clear to anyone who is
                                                                              actually familiar with Evola.]
                                                                              Show message history
                                                                              >
                                                                            • caleb afendopoulo
                                                                              Would it not be wise for the monitor of this group to delete all the ad hominems ? ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired
                                                                              Message 38 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
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                                                                                Would it not be wise for the monitor of this group to
                                                                                delete all the "ad hominems"?
                                                                                --- Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:

                                                                                > To Whom It May Concern:
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Southgate would like someone else to do the research
                                                                                > for him, since he does
                                                                                > not feel up to doing it himself.
                                                                                >
                                                                                > He will then probably cross-post it to all his other
                                                                                > lists under his own
                                                                                > name.
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                > From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                > [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                                > On Behalf Of Troy Southgate
                                                                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:54 AM
                                                                                > To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                > Subject: Re: [evola_as_he_is] Religion
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > I'd be very interested to read more about this, too,
                                                                                > if anyone else can
                                                                                > provide quotations.
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote:
                                                                                >
                                                                                > J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen
                                                                                > series, XXVI) New York
                                                                                > 1951.
                                                                                >
                                                                                > Also H.S. Nyberg, Die Religionen des Alten Iran,
                                                                                > Leipzig 1938.
                                                                                >
                                                                                > I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of
                                                                                > Corbin.
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > In <evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                >
                                                                                > <savitar_devi@...> wrote:
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                > In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the
                                                                                > information on pre-Aryan
                                                                                > matriarchy be found?
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >
                                                                                >


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                                                                              • evola_as_he_is
                                                                                We tolerate ad hominem attacks to a certain extent, to the extent that, as pointed out by Seneca, as well as by Evola in Sintesi di dottrina della razza ,
                                                                                Message 39 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                                                  We tolerate 'ad hominem' attacks to a certain extent, to the extent
                                                                                  that, as pointed out by Seneca, as well as by Evola in 'Sintesi di
                                                                                  dottrina della razza', only an individual who is weak inside can be
                                                                                  hurt by an 'ad hominem' attack : if someone is hurt by an 'ad
                                                                                  hominem' attack, he has to figure out what's wrong with himself, why
                                                                                  he got hurt, and then he has to cure himself. For more about this,
                                                                                  please see 'The Doctrine of Awakening', as well as some works of
                                                                                  Nietzsche.



                                                                                  --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, caleb afendopoulo
                                                                                  <afendopoulo@y...> wrote:
                                                                                  Show message history
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > Would it not be wise for the monitor of this group to
                                                                                  > delete all the "ad hominems"?
                                                                                  > --- Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > > To Whom It May Concern:
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > Southgate would like someone else to do the research
                                                                                  > > for him, since he does
                                                                                  > > not feel up to doing it himself.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > He will then probably cross-post it to all his other
                                                                                  > > lists under his own
                                                                                  > > name.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                  > > From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                  > > [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                                  > > On Behalf Of Troy Southgate
                                                                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:54 AM
                                                                                  > > To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                  > > Subject: Re: [evola_as_he_is] Religion
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > I'd be very interested to read more about this, too,
                                                                                  > > if anyone else can
                                                                                  > > provide quotations.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > vandermok <vandermok@l...> wrote:
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen
                                                                                  > > series, XXVI) New York
                                                                                  > > 1951.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > Also H.S. Nyberg, Die Religionen des Alten Iran,
                                                                                  > > Leipzig 1938.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of
                                                                                  > > Corbin.
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > In <evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > <savitar_devi@y...> wrote:
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > > In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the
                                                                                  > > information on pre-Aryan
                                                                                  > > matriarchy be found?
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  > >
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  >
                                                                                  > __________________________________________________
                                                                                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                                                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                                                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
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                                                                                • vandermok
                                                                                  I m sorry today you are all in a black mood, anyway, to me, it is better to express frankly and loyally our ideas rather than do it slipping away to another
                                                                                  Message 40 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                                                    I' m sorry today you are all in a black mood, anyway, to me, it is better to express frankly and loyally our ideas rather than do it slipping away to another list or environment. 
                                                                                     
                                                                                    Since as even Troy shows following wisely the Latin proverbs on the idleness (Otium utile est, referre se in otium, otium litteratum, et cetera...) please, do not force me to break my sacred idleness making a hard research on every time and context in which Evola used the word "veggenza". I simply assumed  he did not intend that word like Rudolf Steiner or Papus, but from a point of view a bit wide. That's all. 
                                                                                     
                                                                                     
                                                                                     
                                                                                     To be more specific, both 'Imperialismo pagano' and 'Heidnischer
                                                                                    Imperialismus' have five chapters, of which four bear the same
                                                                                    title :

                                                                                    I. 'We, anti-Europeans'
                                                                                    II 'Conditions for Empire'
                                                                                    III. 'The democratic Mistake'
                                                                                    IV. 'The Roots of European Evil'

                                                                                    In 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', the fifth chapter of 'Imperialismo
                                                                                    pagano', 'Heathen values and Christian values', is called 'Our
                                                                                    European Symbol'. Beyond this, there are major differences between
                                                                                    both texts, and most readers agree that the German version is far
                                                                                    more accomplished than the Italian one.

                                                                                    Are you sure that 'H.I.' was designed to fit with the German
                                                                                    mentality? Rather, wasn't it designed to capture the mind of the best
                                                                                    elements in the German hierarchy of that time in the name of a
                                                                                    synthesis between the German eagle and the Roman eagle?

                                                                                    If 'veggenza', a word which Evola seldom used, doesn't only have
                                                                                    occultist connotations in that excerpt from 'H.I.', what kind of
                                                                                    other connotations does it have, then, according to you? Before
                                                                                    speculating and worrying about the connotation(s) of a word,
                                                                                    shouldn't we start with focusing on its denotation?
                                                                                  • caleb afendopoulo
                                                                                    thank you for your reply. it just seemed to us that some of the replies bordered on childishness and/or based upon previous personal encounters which we are
                                                                                    Message 41 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                                                      thank you for your reply. it just seemed to us that
                                                                                      some of the replies bordered on childishness and/or
                                                                                      based upon previous personal encounters which we are
                                                                                      not familiar with.
                                                                                      otherwise your note is enlightening.
                                                                                      thanx.

                                                                                      --- evola_as_he_is <evola_as_he_is@...> wrote:

                                                                                      >
                                                                                      > We tolerate 'ad hominem' attacks to a certain
                                                                                      > extent, to the extent
                                                                                      > that, as pointed out by Seneca, as well as by Evola
                                                                                      > in 'Sintesi di
                                                                                      > dottrina della razza', only an individual who is
                                                                                      > weak inside can be
                                                                                      > hurt by an 'ad hominem' attack : if someone is hurt
                                                                                      > by an 'ad
                                                                                      > hominem' attack, he has to figure out what's wrong
                                                                                      > with himself, why
                                                                                      > he got hurt, and then he has to cure himself. For
                                                                                      > more about this,
                                                                                      > please see 'The Doctrine of Awakening', as well as
                                                                                      > some works of
                                                                                      > Nietzsche.
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      > --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, caleb
                                                                                      > afendopoulo
                                                                                      > <afendopoulo@y...> wrote:
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      > > Would it not be wise for the monitor of this group
                                                                                      > to
                                                                                      > > delete all the "ad hominems"?
                                                                                      > > --- Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@b...> wrote:
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      > > > To Whom It May Concern:
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > Southgate would like someone else to do the
                                                                                      > research
                                                                                      > > > for him, since he does
                                                                                      > > > not feel up to doing it himself.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > He will then probably cross-post it to all his
                                                                                      > other
                                                                                      > > > lists under his own
                                                                                      > > > name.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                                                      > > > From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                      > > > [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com]
                                                                                      > > > On Behalf Of Troy Southgate
                                                                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:54 AM
                                                                                      > > > To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                      > > > Subject: Re: [evola_as_he_is] Religion
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > I'd be very interested to read more about this,
                                                                                      > too,
                                                                                      > > > if anyone else can
                                                                                      > > > provide quotations.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > vandermok <vandermok@l...> wrote:
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The
                                                                                      > Bollingen
                                                                                      > > > series, XXVI) New York
                                                                                      > > > 1951.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > Also H.S. Nyberg, Die Religionen des Alten
                                                                                      > Iran,
                                                                                      > > > Leipzig 1938.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources
                                                                                      > of
                                                                                      > > > Corbin.
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > In <evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > <savitar_devi@y...> wrote:
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > > In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can
                                                                                      > the
                                                                                      > > > information on pre-Aryan
                                                                                      > > > matriarchy be found?
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > > >
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      > > __________________________________________________
                                                                                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                                                                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                                                                      > protection around
                                                                                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                                                                      > >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >
                                                                                      >




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                                                                                    • evola_as_he_is
                                                                                      Instead of trying to evade them by referring, in the most detached manner, to the current mood of the members of this forum, or rather to what you assume their
                                                                                      Message 42 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                                                        Instead of trying to evade them by referring, in the most detached
                                                                                        manner, to the current mood of the members of this forum, or rather
                                                                                        to what you assume their current mood may be, would you be kind
                                                                                        enough to answer the simple questions we asked and which your
                                                                                        convoluted message led us to ask : "if 'veggenza', a word which Evola
                                                                                        seldom used, doesn't have only occultist connotations in that excerpt
                                                                                        from 'H.I.', what kind of other connotations does it have, then,
                                                                                        according to you? Before speculating and worrying about the
                                                                                        connotation(s) of a word, shouldn't we start with focusing on its
                                                                                        denotation?"

                                                                                        Please note that we are not so much interested in finding out about
                                                                                        your current mood as we are in your answer to the first question and
                                                                                        your reaction to the second question.


                                                                                        --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "vandermok" <vandermok@l...>
                                                                                        wrote:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > I' m sorry today you are all in a black mood, anyway, to me, it is
                                                                                        better to express frankly and loyally our ideas rather than do it
                                                                                        slipping away to another list or environment.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Since as even Troy shows following wisely the Latin proverbs on the
                                                                                        idleness (Otium utile est, referre se in otium, otium litteratum, et
                                                                                        cetera...) please, do not force me to break my sacred idleness making
                                                                                        a hard research on every time and context in which Evola used the
                                                                                        word "veggenza". I simply assumed he did not intend that word like
                                                                                        Rudolf Steiner or Papus, but from a point of view a bit wide. That's
                                                                                        all.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > in evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                        > <evola_as_he_is@y...> wrote:
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > To be more specific, both 'Imperialismo pagano' and 'Heidnischer
                                                                                        > Imperialismus' have five chapters, of which four bear the same
                                                                                        > title :
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > I. 'We, anti-Europeans'
                                                                                        > II 'Conditions for Empire'
                                                                                        > III. 'The democratic Mistake'
                                                                                        > IV. 'The Roots of European Evil'
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > In 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', the fifth chapter of 'Imperialismo
                                                                                        > pagano', 'Heathen values and Christian values', is called 'Our
                                                                                        > European Symbol'. Beyond this, there are major differences between
                                                                                        > both texts, and most readers agree that the German version is far
                                                                                        > more accomplished than the Italian one.
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > Are you sure that 'H.I.' was designed to fit with the German
                                                                                        > mentality? Rather, wasn't it designed to capture the mind of the
                                                                                        best
                                                                                        Show message history
                                                                                        > elements in the German hierarchy of that time in the name of a
                                                                                        > synthesis between the German eagle and the Roman eagle?
                                                                                        >
                                                                                        > If 'veggenza', a word which Evola seldom used, doesn't only have
                                                                                        > occultist connotations in that excerpt from 'H.I.', what kind of
                                                                                        > other connotations does it have, then, according to you? Before
                                                                                        > speculating and worrying about the connotation(s) of a word,
                                                                                        > shouldn't we start with focusing on its denotation?
                                                                                        >
                                                                                      • vandermok
                                                                                        Some sort of detached metaphysical vision, not religious or mystic, without any identification with the object, a knowledge deprived of the pathos of the
                                                                                        Message 43 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                                                          Some sort of detached metaphysical vision, not religious or mystic, without any identification with the object, a knowledge deprived of the pathos of the faith. As Evola said in that book: "better to know that we do not know than to believe".
                                                                                        • Troy Southgate
                                                                                          My own research speaks for itself: http://www.rosenoire.org (thanks for the chance to plug my website, Tony) Tony Ciopa wrote:
                                                                                          Message 44 of 52 , Dec 7, 2005
                                                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                                                            My own research speaks for itself:
                                                                                            http://www.rosenoire.org

                                                                                            (thanks for the chance to plug my website, Tony)



                                                                                            Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:
                                                                                            Show message history
                                                                                            To Whom It May Concern:
                                                                                             
                                                                                            Southgate would like someone else to do the research for him, since he does not feel up to doing it himself.
                                                                                            He will then probably cross-post it to all his other lists under his own name.
                                                                                             
                                                                                             
                                                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                                                            From: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com [mailto:evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Troy Southgate
                                                                                            Sent:
                                                                                            Wednesday, December 07, 2005 6:54 AM
                                                                                            To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                            Subject: Re: [evola_as_he_is] Religion
                                                                                             
                                                                                            I'd be very interested to read more about this, too, if anyone else can provide quotations.



                                                                                            vandermok <vandermok@...> wrote:
                                                                                            J. Campbell, Philosophies of India (The Bollingen series, XXVI) New York 1951.
                                                                                            Also H.S. Nyberg, Die  Religionen des Alten Iran, Leipzig 1938.
                                                                                            I have not them; I' m simply quoting the sources of Corbin. 
                                                                                             
                                                                                             
                                                                                            <savitar_devi@...>  wrote:
                                                                                             
                                                                                            In which of Campbell and/or Zimmer's works can the information on pre-Aryan matriarchy be found?
                                                                                             



                                                                                            Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
                                                                                          • Tony Ciopa
                                                                                            Troy Southgate wrote ... Think nothing of it, Tory - it is better to give than to receive!
                                                                                            Message 45 of 52 , Dec 8, 2005
                                                                                            • 0 Attachment

                                                                                              Troy Southgate wrote

                                                                                              >>(thanks for the chance to plug my website, Tony)

                                                                                               

                                                                                              Think nothing of it, Tory – it is better to give than to receive!

                                                                                               

                                                                                               



                                                                                               

                                                                                            • Troy Southgate
                                                                                              Thanks again, Tone. Tony Ciopa wrote: Troy Southgate wrote ... Think nothing of it, Tory –
                                                                                              Message 46 of 52 , Dec 8, 2005
                                                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                Thanks again, Tone.



                                                                                                Tony Ciopa <hyperborean@...> wrote:
                                                                                                Show message history
                                                                                                Troy Southgate wrote
                                                                                                >>(thanks for the chance to plug my website, Tony)
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                Think nothing of it, Tory – it is better to give than to receive!
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                 


                                                                                                 



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                                                                                              • vandermok
                                                                                                In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com ... I agree that ataraxia is the best thing, but perhaps a justified feeling of hurt can rise when an ad hominem attack
                                                                                                Message 47 of 52 , Dec 9, 2005
                                                                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                  > We tolerate 'ad hominem' attacks to a certain extent, to the extent
                                                                                                  that, as pointed out by Seneca, as well as by Evola in 'Sintesi di  dottrina della razza', only an individual who is weak inside can be  hurt by an 'ad hominem' attack : if someone is hurt by an 'ad  hominem' attack, he has to figure out what's wrong with himself, why he got hurt, and then he has to cure himself. For more about this,  please see 'The Doctrine of Awakening', as well as some works of Nietzsche.
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                   
                                                                                                  I agree that ataraxia is the best thing, but perhaps a justified feeling of hurt can rise when an 'ad hominem' attack comes by treachery from a person before considered by our side or from which one could expect some gratitude.
                                                                                                  Let's consider what happened between Evola and Reghini. In reality, the first never loved the latter because of his Masonic esotericism, but he accepted him as contributor. When they quarrelled, Reghini tried to render ridiculous Evola publicizing a personal information he got by Sibilla Aleramo, who had an affair with J. E. It seems  to me that Evola did not remain completely indifferent, even till to the point to deny a true thing (I'm referring to the teasing by Reghini on the signature 'Jules Evola' that in reality Evola really used for juvenile poems and in a post card to the publisher Gobetti of Turin). This shows that it is not always possible to treat as equal a disloyal personal attack even to the point to retort and use the same weapons of the betrayer person against himself.
                                                                                                  By the way, Evola, in that occasion, called Reghini "cervello di gallina" (brain of hen or fly), thing that recants the conviction of some old friend of mine (just for making a retort, because I'm a weak and evil person, as the owner knows) that Reghini had a lot of clout with Evola.

                                                                                                • kshonan88
                                                                                                  ... The Roman: hostem cum fugeret, se Fannius ipse peremit. hic, rogo, non furor est, ne moriare, mori? As he was fleeing the enemy, Fannius killed himself. I
                                                                                                  Message 48 of 52 , Dec 15, 2005
                                                                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                    --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                                                                                                    <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                    >
                                                                                                    > oh, come on, what is the idea of aryanism if not a dogma?
                                                                                                    >



                                                                                                    The Roman:



                                                                                                    hostem cum fugeret, se Fannius ipse peremit.
                                                                                                    hic, rogo, non furor est, ne moriare, mori?

                                                                                                    "As he was fleeing the enemy, Fannius killed himself. I ask you! Is
                                                                                                    this not madness - dying so as not to die?" (Epigrams of Martial,
                                                                                                    2.80)



                                                                                                    The Japanese:

                                                                                                    "The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to
                                                                                                    either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not
                                                                                                    particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that dying
                                                                                                    without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous
                                                                                                    way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or death,
                                                                                                    it is not necessary to gain one's aim.

                                                                                                    We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according to
                                                                                                    what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to live
                                                                                                    is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaming
                                                                                                    one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in
                                                                                                    this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by setting
                                                                                                    one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as
                                                                                                    though his body were already dead, he pains freedom in the Way. His
                                                                                                    whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his
                                                                                                    calling." (Hagakure)



                                                                                                    The Indian:

                                                                                                    "Know naught! Life cannot slay. Life is not slain. ...This Life
                                                                                                    within all living things... hides beyond harm... do thy
                                                                                                    part. ...Either being killed, thou wilt win Swarga's safety, or alive
                                                                                                    and victor - thou wilt reign an earthly king. Therefore, arise,...
                                                                                                    nerve thy heart to meet as things alike to thee - pleasure or pain,
                                                                                                    profit or ruin, victory or defeat: gird thee to the fight, for so,
                                                                                                    thou shalt not sin!" (Krishna; Bhagavad Gita, 2)



                                                                                                    What is common to them?


                                                                                                    Honour?



                                                                                                    1) I am Aryan, so I should want this.

                                                                                                    2) Because I wanted this, I am Aryan. (This includes - Because I
                                                                                                    wanted to be Aryan, I am Aryan.)


                                                                                                    Honour is in the honesty of never moulding your dreams to fit in with
                                                                                                    the thought, to do this is Aryan, to do this is un-Aryan...



                                                                                                    I am a Warrior, so I should fight - This WAS Arjuna's thinking before
                                                                                                    Krishna appeared.

                                                                                                    I fight, therefore I am called a Warrior... This IS Arjuna's thinking
                                                                                                    after.



                                                                                                    Be it even the highest ideal, I think real Honour is in pursuing with
                                                                                                    honesty, after our own nature... after that, whatever we may become,
                                                                                                    whether we fit into that ideal or not, it does not matter anymore. We
                                                                                                    become who we are, what we are.

                                                                                                    I don't think Aryanism, or even the idea of it, has ever been
                                                                                                    dogmatic.

                                                                                                    Regards.
                                                                                                  • evola_as_he_is
                                                                                                    As a matter of fact, in Sanskrit, jiv means life, life- force ; ji , to struggle , to beat , to win , to conquer . Needless to elaborate. ... dying
                                                                                                    Message 49 of 52 , Dec 16, 2005
                                                                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                      As a matter of fact, in Sanskrit, 'jiv' means 'life, 'life-
                                                                                                      force' ; 'ji', 'to struggle', 'to beat', 'to win', to 'conquer'.

                                                                                                      Needless to elaborate.



                                                                                                      --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "kshonan88" <kshonan88@y...>
                                                                                                      wrote:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Rowan Berkeley"
                                                                                                      > <rowan_berkeley@y...> wrote:
                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                      > > oh, come on, what is the idea of aryanism if not a dogma?
                                                                                                      > >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > The Roman:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > hostem cum fugeret, se Fannius ipse peremit.
                                                                                                      > hic, rogo, non furor est, ne moriare, mori?
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > "As he was fleeing the enemy, Fannius killed himself. I ask you! Is
                                                                                                      > this not madness - dying so as not to die?" (Epigrams of Martial,
                                                                                                      > 2.80)
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > The Japanese:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > "The Way of the Samurai is found in death. When it comes to
                                                                                                      > either/or, there is only the quick choice of death. It is not
                                                                                                      > particularly difficult. Be determined and advance. To say that
                                                                                                      dying
                                                                                                      > without reaching one's aim is to die a dog's death is the frivolous
                                                                                                      > way of sophisticates. When pressed with the choice of life or
                                                                                                      death,
                                                                                                      > it is not necessary to gain one's aim.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > We all want to live. And in large part we make our logic according
                                                                                                      to
                                                                                                      > what we like. But not having attained our aim and continuing to
                                                                                                      live
                                                                                                      > is cowardice. This is a thin dangerous line. To die without gaming
                                                                                                      > one's aim is a dog's death and fanaticism. But there is no shame in
                                                                                                      > this. This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai. If by
                                                                                                      setting
                                                                                                      > one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as
                                                                                                      > though his body were already dead, he pains freedom in the Way. His
                                                                                                      > whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his
                                                                                                      > calling." (Hagakure)
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > The Indian:
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > "Know naught! Life cannot slay. Life is not slain. ...This Life
                                                                                                      > within all living things... hides beyond harm... do thy
                                                                                                      > part. ...Either being killed, thou wilt win Swarga's safety, or
                                                                                                      alive
                                                                                                      > and victor - thou wilt reign an earthly king. Therefore, arise,...
                                                                                                      > nerve thy heart to meet as things alike to thee - pleasure or pain,
                                                                                                      > profit or ruin, victory or defeat: gird thee to the fight, for so,
                                                                                                      > thou shalt not sin!" (Krishna; Bhagavad Gita, 2)
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > What is common to them?
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Honour?
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 1) I am Aryan, so I should want this.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > 2) Because I wanted this, I am Aryan. (This includes - Because I
                                                                                                      > wanted to be Aryan, I am Aryan.)
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Honour is in the honesty of never moulding your dreams to fit in
                                                                                                      with
                                                                                                      > the thought, to do this is Aryan, to do this is un-Aryan...
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I am a Warrior, so I should fight - This WAS Arjuna's thinking
                                                                                                      before
                                                                                                      > Krishna appeared.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I fight, therefore I am called a Warrior... This IS Arjuna's
                                                                                                      thinking
                                                                                                      > after.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Be it even the highest ideal, I think real Honour is in pursuing
                                                                                                      with
                                                                                                      > honesty, after our own nature... after that, whatever we may
                                                                                                      become,
                                                                                                      > whether we fit into that ideal or not, it does not matter anymore.
                                                                                                      We
                                                                                                      Show message history
                                                                                                      > become who we are, what we are.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > I don't think Aryanism, or even the idea of it, has ever been
                                                                                                      > dogmatic.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                      > Regards.
                                                                                                      >
                                                                                                    • G. van der Heide
                                                                                                      http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/ is meant to feature the untranscribed parts of the German edition of Imperialismo Pagano. Hopefully to be continued.
                                                                                                      Message 50 of 52 , Apr 17, 2013
                                                                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                        http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/ is meant to feature the untranscribed parts of the German edition of Imperialismo Pagano.
                                                                                                        Hopefully to be continued.
                                                                                                      • G. van der Heide
                                                                                                        In the meantime a few more chapters have been added. (http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/) A table of contents will be added in order to provide the
                                                                                                        Message 51 of 52 , Jul 18, 2013
                                                                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                          In the meantime a few more chapters have been added. (http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/)

                                                                                                          A table of contents will be added in order to provide the necessary clarity on the book's structure.


                                                                                                          To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                          From: g.vdheide@...
                                                                                                          Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:28:06 +0200
                                                                                                          Subject: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/ is meant to feature the untranscribed parts of the German edition of Imperialismo Pagano.
                                                                                                          Hopefully to be continued.

                                                                                                        • G. van der Heide
                                                                                                          Given its content it is hardly worth mentioning, but for the sake of completeness: a Dutch review of Heidnischer Imperialismus , published on July 29, 1934,
                                                                                                          Message 52 of 52 , Mar 17, 2014
                                                                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                                                                            Given its content it is hardly worth mentioning, but for the sake of completeness: a Dutch review of 'Heidnischer Imperialismus', published on July 29, 1934, can be found at http://nsalternatief.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/nieuwe-middeleeuwen-gevraagd/ or http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/braa002verz05_01/braa002verz05_01_0038.php
                                                                                                            Authored by the liberal publicist and novelist M. ter Braak, http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/76583/Menno-ter-Braak, http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?/en/collecties/ter_braak/biografie.
                                                                                                            To summarize: the review compares the figure of J. Evola with that of Oswald Spengler. It argues that the main similarity between the two is their anti-modern, reactionary and aristocratic philosophical stance. The consistency of Evola's doctrinal views is observed. The author sees herein another similarity with the work of Spengler, but stresses the radical differences that exist between them on a theoretical level. Evola's Weltanschauung is being described as a "reactionary faith"; the author is downright sceptical, but notes how pleasing these beliefs are on an aesthetic (!) level - all things considered -, calling into question the idea of a 'solar' tradition and Nordico-Aryan heritage. The worth of both Evola and Spengler is to be found in their resistance to any form of
                                                                                                            equalisation as it appears in either democratic and fascist societies. Precisely in the latter society their value as 'opposition figures' should be considered due to the existing ideological similarities. Therefore their presence is tolerated and through their critique the most serious 'errors' of the fascist regime would be equally impaired.


                                                                                                            To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            From: g.vdheide@...
                                                                                                            Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 13:28:15 +0200
                                                                                                            Subject: RE: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            In the meantime a few more chapters have been added. (http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/)

                                                                                                            A table of contents will be added in order to provide the necessary clarity on the book's structure.


                                                                                                            To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
                                                                                                            From: g.vdheide@...
                                                                                                            Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 11:28:06 +0200
                                                                                                            Subject: [evola_as_he_is] Heidnischer Imperialismus

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            http://heidensimperialisme.wordpress.com/ is meant to feature the untranscribed parts of the German edition of Imperialismo Pagano.
                                                                                                            Hopefully to be continued.


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