Skip to search.

Breaking News Visit Yahoo! News for the latest.

×Close this window

rouesolaire · rouesolaire@yahoo.fr | Group Member  - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups
evola_as_he_is · EVOLA AS HE IS

The Yahoo! Groups Product Blog

Check it out!

Group Information

  • Members: 121
  • Category: Spirituality
  • Founded: Nov 19, 2004
  • Language: English

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Message search is now enhanced, find messages faster. Take it for a spin.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Falsification of ancient history   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
Reply  | 
Re: Falsification of ancient history

We fully agree with tlefranc10, with whom we have exchanged a few messages off
forum, in considering Fomenko's views as "extremist" on the following grounds :
- a poorly substantiated claim that Rome, Troy and Jerusalem were actually one
and the same place in ancient texts.
- the scapegoating of Scaliger and Petavius as the only responsible for the
falsification of historical chronology.
- the application of mere statistical methods to the analysis of historical
narrative texts.
- a die-hard Russo-centric viewpoint, and, as a result, a lack of coherent
global view of the subject, a mosaic of disconnected results. The rationale
behind the falsification of history does not even seem to be of interest to
Fomenko, even though he pays tribute in 'History : Fiction Or Science ?', Vol. 2
to historians who, as Krammeier, wondered about it.

Fomenko's work's achievements and failures, strengths and drawbacks, are well
identified in this study :
http://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=0&article=1222&context=theses&\
type=additional&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.fr%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26\
rct%3Dj%26q%3D%2522fomenko%2522%2Bcriticism%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D3%26ved%3D0CGE\
QFjAC%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fro.uow.edu.au%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Ff\
ilename%253D0%2526article%253D1222%2526context%253Dtheses%2526type%253Dadditiona\
l%26ei%3DVt_AT4TUMYeP0AW_6-G4Cg%26usg%3DAFQjCNGoTqUcU5TNsr707B6gLquteXzOMw#searc\
h=%22fomenko%20criticism%22


In any case, it is important to bear in mind that what is now called "Recentism"
is not a spontaneous generation ; so-called official history has been a subject
of dispute or controversy, a matter for investigation, ever since it was
artificially established. In other words, "Recentism' is not new.


--- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "emmanuelparapine" <emmanuelparapine@...>
wrote:
>
> You come to a highly interesting point. Though I've never read anything with
relation to this topic, I share your feeling about the falsification of the
ancient history. Three fundamental reasons encourage me to think likewise :
>
> - The recognized falsifications throughout the history (not to mention the
'h-word', historians such as Jean Norton Cru successfully debunked claims of
"atrocities" during the First World War, sustained by many oral testimonies ;
less recently, we know about the famous "donation of Contanstine" - etc, etc).
But if I have any knowledge of these forgeries, it is only because authors of
the revisionist historical school have mentioned them as examples in their
writings, and because there are notably famous. If we take that into account, we
can imagine how many falsifications may remain unknown, in less mediatic, more
consensual fields of study.
>
> - The fact that we live during the age of Kali-Yuga, one of whose attributes
is the confusion of ideas. We know that it is true with relation to spiritual
issues, and we can logically conclude that it is true for the knowledge of
historical facts too.
>
> - During eras like Middle Age, the number of those who could write, read and
check the authenticity of the various assertions was so little, and interactions
between such people were so unlikely, that many falsifications probably occured.
>
> By the way, the mere fact that the majority of our contemporaries
unquestioningly worship the commonly accepted chronology and list of historical
events is sufficient to arouse my mistrust.
>
> I would like to ask two questions to tlefranc10 (and the other members) :
>
> 1) Might you know any work by Evola or other authors about the falsification
of human prehistory (I'm not talking about refutations of the theory of
evolution) ? Indeed, symbolically speaking, the idea that our ancestors were
dirty, lived in caves in the middle of their dejections, is a strong suggesting
idea in favour of progressivism.
>
> 2)While I was discussing similar issues on a French forum, one said that
recentists believe that the wall of Hadrian was built to protect human from
dinosaurs... Does anybody know if any author effectively support a such thesis ?
Was it what you wanted to refer to when you spoke about Fomenko's "extremism" ?
>
>
> --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "tlefranc10" <tlefranc10@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > First of all, I would like to say that I have read nearly all the postings
on this list and many were very interesting. Thanks to those who have written
them.
> >
> > I would like to address a topic which has not been discussed so far on this
list I believe, that of the falsification of ancient history (antiquity, middle
ages and renaissance). It is directly related to Evola in so far his writings
are largely based on various historical accounts and I do not think he ever
discussed the topic of systematic falsification of ancient history. I believe it
may be strongly related to the struggle between the ghibelline faction and the
guelph faction, as you will see as you read my post.
> >
> > It seems that the topic of the falsification of ancient history has become
more « mainstream » over the last few decades as several authors have started
investigating and publishing articles and books. It should be noted that there
is not one school of thought, though. However, as early as the seventeeth
century there were people who claimed that history had been largely falsified.
> >
> > For example, Isaac Newton (1642-1727) wrote a lot about it, which was
published against his will in a book in French called « Abrégé de la chronologie
» (1725), published in its full version in 1729 (both are available online in
google books). Basing himself on astronomical calculations and the dates of the
Greek olympiads, Newton's theory is that about 300 years had to be removed from
the chronology. He then rewrote and reinterpreted each event of the antiquity.
> >
> > Jean Hardouin (1646-1729), a French Jesuit opposed Newton's theory but
agreed that history had been largely falsified. A man of considerable learning,
Hardouin was librarian at the Collège de Paris. He also worked during 5 years on
publishing an excellent edition of Pliny's Natural History, which is still
regarded today as the reference edition. He also published an edition of the
Catholic councils. It is said that his numerous and lengthy notes in these works
contain his revisionist ideas.
> >
> > Hardouin said that he started scenting fraud in Augustine and his
contemporaries in August 1690 and that he discovered the whole extent of the
fraud only in May 1692 as he was writing down long extracts from ancient
authors. According to him, a gang of forgers (the « impious cabal » as he calls
them) started writing most of Christian patristic literature as well as most
Greek and Roman books in the thirteenth century. This « impious design », whose
utlimate goal was to falsify and « utterly ruin » the Christian religion, was
carried out until around the end of the fifteenth century. The first leader of
the forgers was Frederick II of Hohenstaufen (who was nicknamed « Severus
Archontius ») and Benedictines were heavily involved in the forgery, still
according to him. Basing himself on his examination of old coins, Hardouin
argued that the Church did not any temporal power before the tenth century. He
also argued that pretty much the whole history, as told by Christian sources, of
the late and decadent Roman empire was an invention.
> >
> > Hardouin was ridiculed and persecuted by the temporal power, the Church and
the various religious orders including the Jesuits. Most said that he was a
madman. His books were banned and he had to find a publisher in Holland. His «
Prolegomena to the censorship of ancient authors » were published in the end of
his life. A short book of around 180 pages, it sums up his whole theory and
contains insightful remarks. I have read it in English and I have translated it
into French. I do not know yet if I will simply put it online or publish it. In
any case, I will be glad to provide further information on it. A lengthy
biography in French written by a fellow Jesuit, Father Marteret, can be found in
« Eloges de quelques auteurs françois » (1742) (Available on gallica.fr).
Hardouin wrote also on Dante and said that his book « The Divine Comedy » could
not have been written in the fourteenth century (available on
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Doutes_propos%C3%A9s_sur_l_age_du_Dante_pa\
r.html?id=shtLAAAAcAAJ
). An exhaustive bibliography can be found in
Sommervogel's book, « Bibliothèque des écrivains de la Compagne de Jésus »
(available on google books). Academic papers were recently written by scholar
Anthony Grafton on Hardouin, who also wrote an interesting book on forgery
called « Forgers and critics creativity duplicity in Western scholarship ».
Interesting documents on Hardouin can be found on www.persee.fr also. Finally, I
know that Hardouin disseminated his revisionist ideas in all his works even if
they were out of topic. Unfortunately, most of his works are in Latin, including
his big book on chronology, and I cannot read them. Other priests (the
Benedictine Jean Mabillon and his excellent book on diplomatics, the Fathers
Henschen, Paperbroch, etc.) wrote also in Latin and participated in the
controversy. From what I understand they went not as far as Hardouin but
acknowledged that many documents had been falsified. As far as I know, nobody
wrote a detailed study of this controversy which lasted for years. More
information on Hardouin here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Hardouin
> >
> > It was English historian Edwin Johnson (1842-1901) who translated Hardouin's
prolegomena into English. Johnson wrote a lot also on the falsification of
history. I have read his books and according to him the history of Christianity
as we know it is entirely made up. He claimed that Christianity sprung up in
Italy and that the Bible texts of the New Testament were written first in Latin.
He also claimed that English history was entirely fictional (see his book « The
Rise of English Culture »). His books can be found online :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Johnson_(historian). Forster Fitzgerald
Arbuthnot, an English orientalist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forster_Fitzgerald_Arbuthnot), who was a a friend
of Johnson, published in 1900 a book on English chronology in the same vein as
Johnson's. It is called « Mysteries of chronology » and can be downloaded online
(http://archive.org/details/mysteriesofchron00arbuiala).
> >
> > Wilhelm Kammeier (1889-1959) was a German law official who wrote several
books including « Die Fälschung der deutschen Geschichte », « Neue Beweise für
die Fälschung der deutschen Geschichte », « Die Warheit über die Geschichte des
Spätmittelalters » and « Die Fälschung der Geschichte des Urchistentums ». The
first book can be found online but I could not read it because I do not speak
German. It would be great if someone untertook the translation of this book.
Kammeier's theory is that the Church launched and coordinated a vast and
systematic rewriting of world history in the late middle ages. According to him,
documents related to the ancient Germanic peoples were destroyed and/or
corrupted by the Church. That is why little is known on ancient Germanic peoples
today. Germanic peoples, "barbarians", were given a lesser role in history,
contrary to Rome, which was given the limelight. I have read, in Fomenko's books
I believe, that it was only in national-socialist Germany, in 1934, that he
managed to have his books published. He was a soldier in the war and became a
teacher in East Germany, after 1945. He thought his findings would be of
interest to the East German communist authorities but to no avail, interestingly
(because his findings undermined the Catholic Church and communists did not like
the Catholic Church to say the least). He was actually persecuted and died in
1959 in misery, ill and with little to eat.
> >
> > Many more authors, more or less contemporary, have written on the
falsification of ancient history. Here is a list :
http://www.ilya.it/chrono/pages/framautorfr.htm
> > Several works from these authors can be accessed online, so I suggest that
you look for their works on the internet. The whole website should be browsed
as it contains interesting articles.
> >
> > Hermann Detering, a contemporary German pastor who is not mentioned on the
website given above, maintains a site which contains many resources in several
languages : http://www.radikalkritik.de/
> > As far as I know, he concentrates his studies on early christianism and has
read Johnson's books.
> >
> > François de Sarre, a French zoologist, also has a website :
http://initial.bipedalism.pagesperso-orange.fr/. He has written a very
interesting book called « Où est donc passé le Moyen-Âge ? » in which he
develops his own theory using the findings of other researchers. Also of
interest, Pierre Dortiguier, a French professor of philosophy, has given a
conference this month on the falsification of ancient history :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqw2aa_pierre-dortiguier-le-recentisme_news?sta\
rt=1

> >
> > A personal note on Anatoly Fomenko, perhaps the most « extremist »
theoretician of the falsification of ancient history. I think that he may have
interesting thoughts but his theory is too far-fetched and eccentric. Also, it
is important to understand that authors may be partial. For example, they may be
influenced by nationalist thought and seek to favour their country when doing
their critique of history.
> >
> > Overall, I think it is impossible to have definite certainties on the matter
given how vast and complicated it is. However, I have become convinced that
ancient history has been falsified, but it is difficult to ascertain to what
extent, and that the Catholic Church was involved in the falsification. I am
also sure that history needs to be shortened and that the Catholic Church is not
as old as it is commonly regarded.
> >
> > More generally, I find it extremely pretentious of historians to assign very
precise dates to old events given the actual intricacy of chronology and the
extent of falsified documents.
> >
> > It is important to keep in mind that saying that a text may be falsified
does not eliminate its potential metaphysical value. To be more specific,
Guénon, Evola and others recognized metaphysical contents in certain ancient
texts. It is doubtful that these texts may have been composed by simple forgers.
However, they may come from a different time period to what is generally
assumed, among other things.
> >
>





Sat May 26, 2012 5:04 pm

evola_as_he_is
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 | 
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

Hello, First of all, I would like to say that I have read nearly all the postings on this list and many were very interesting. Thanks to those who have written...
tlefranc10 Offline Send Email May 24, 2012
6:10 pm

You come to a highly interesting point. Though I've never read anything with relation to this topic, I share your feeling about the falsification of the...
emmanuelparapine
emmanuelpara... Offline Send Email
May 25, 2012
3:31 pm

The mentioned books of W. Kammeier are available online at http://reichsarchiv.com/Buecher/01_Bis_1945/01_Bis_1945.php Also, in English there's the work of...
G. van der Heide
vnvsmvndvs Offline Send Email
May 25, 2012
5:56 pm

"A school teacher working in Hannover, Kammeier researched since 1923 the German History. In his first book, written in 1926 but only published in 1935, he...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
May 26, 2012
12:49 pm

We fully agree with tlefranc10, with whom we have exchanged a few messages off forum, in considering Fomenko's views as "extremist" on the following grounds : ...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
May 26, 2012
5:04 pm

Hello, I do not know any works which deal specifically with falsifications of pre-history. However, writings which constitute effective refutations of the...
tlefranc10 Offline Send Email May 27, 2012
7:10 pm

Many noteworthy messages with links to crucial works have been sent and gladly posted on evola_as_he_is for two weeks or so, noteworthy messages and crucial...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
May 27, 2012
7:55 pm

Similar explorations on Jewry in the ancient world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvG39ibZEWk&feature=relmfu ...
G. van der Heide
vnvsmvndvs Offline Send Email
Jul 29, 2012
10:57 pm

Mention was actually made of Recentism in passing in message 1329 in relation to the Protocols controversy, which, at that time, did not arouse any interest. ...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
May 25, 2012
10:25 pm

I have also come to the conclusion that many "European" rulers of the last few centuries had more or less non-European blood. On this, I have found of...
tlefranc10 Offline Send Email May 27, 2012
7:09 pm

Here is another book worth reading: Dissertation sur le culte des saints inconnus (Dissertation on the cult of unknown saints)...
tlefranc10 Offline Send Email Jun 16, 2012
10:37 am

L. A. Waddell (1854-1938) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Waddell <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Waddell> ) was a British philologist and...
tlefranc10 Offline Send Email Aug 8, 2012
7:17 pm

Copyright © 2012 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Copyright Policy - Guidelines NEW - Help