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My Problem with Doctrine of Awakening   Topic List   < Prev Topic  |  Next Topic >
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Re: The Doctrine of Awakening (was : "My Problem with Doctrine of Awakening")


The term sa&#7747;s&#257;ra may have made "a relatively late appearance", the
fact still remains that the concept, and, beyond this, the consciousness of life
as the current of becoming, as a continuous flow, as a perpetual wandering, is
acknowledged by the Rig-Veda.

"The restless shakers drain the udders of the sky, and ever wandering round fill
earth full with milk." (I, 61-69).

"The deeper, doctrinal, and nonpopular significance of the term dukkha is a
state of agitation, of restlessness, or of 'commotion' rather than 'suffering'".
What the noble man, by his very own nature, experienced as 'restlesneess' the
non Aryans, such as the &#346;rama&#7751;as, by their very nature, experienced
as 'suffering'. Typically, the Sanskrit word 'Sams&#257;ra' is the root for the
Malay word 'sengsara', which means 'suffering'.

The concept of sams&#257;ra, as an endless cycle of reincarnations, might have
its origin in pre-Vedic Shramanic traditions, yet, as conclusively showed by J.
Evola, reincarnation was not taught by early Buddhism, far from it. Leaving
aside 'The Doctrine of Awakening', the very Buddhist concept of anatta ('no
soul') is as anti-reincarnationist as possible.




--- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, Asdfasdsfdas Sfsdf <andreforcordelia@...>
wrote:
>
> Simply put, concepts such as Samsara, Nibbana, and Dukkha have their origins
in
> Pre-Vedic Shramanic Traditions.
>
> They are noticeably absent from the Rig Veda.
>
> Forensically, one looks at the major tenants of Buddhism and finds them in the
> South, not in the North. Or at least we find them in Bactria, not in the
> tropical southern region, but also not in the arctic home of the Vedic
> prehistory.
>
> This is not to say that Gaenocratic Shaktism is in anyway wound up in original
> Buddhist tenants, but if we look to PIE religion with the archetype of the Sky
> Father conquering the Telluric serpent, Sun worship, tri-caste society, etc.
we
> would look in vain to find remnants of ascetic renunciation and the Shramanic
> meditational, and yogic ideas.
>
> Latter Hinduism is so incredibly mixed with Vedic, Shramanic and Shaktic
> elements it is hard to take any criticisms of Evola's critique, which you
> included, seriously.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Evola <evola_as_he_is@...>
> To: evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 6:15:29 PM
> Subject: [evola_as_he_is] The Doctrine of Awakening (was : "My Problem with
> Doctrine of Awakening")
>
>
>
> We have followed those links but we have not found any evidence that would
> substantiate the view that the roots of Buddhism "(were) hardly Aryan".
>
> Originally "Vedic Aryanism was resolutely rooted in ritual, sacrifice, and
> hierarchy", yet it decayed :
>
> "(...) the germs of decadence, which were already showing
> themselves in the post-Vedic period and which were to become quite
> evident in the Buddha's day (sixth century b.c.), are as follows:
> above all, a stereotyped ritualism; then the demon of speculation,
> whose effect was that what ought to have remained "secret
> doctrine," upanisad, rahasya, became partly rationalized, with the
> result that there eventually appeared a tumultuous crowd of
> divergent theories, sects, and schools, which the Buddhist texts
> often vividly describe. In the third place, we find a "religious"
> transformation of many divinities who, in the Vedic period were, as
> we have said, simply cosmically transfigured states of
> consciousness; these have now become objects of popular cults. (1)
> We have already spoken of the pantheistic danger. In addition to
> these points we have yet to consider the effect of foreign,
> non-Aryan influences, to which we believe are attributable in no
> small degree the formation and diffusion of the theory of
> reincarnation."
>
> The Vedas consist of four books : the Rigveda, the Yajurveda, the Sama-Veda,
and
> the Atharva-Veda. "'(truths)' of non-Aryan races that are tellurically and
> matriarchally adjusted in outlook" can already be found in the third book of
the
> Rigveda, which is organised in ten books. "(...) the character of the first
> Vedic period was
> becoming overgrown with a tropical and chaotic vegetation of myths
> and popular religious images, even of semidevotional practices
> seeking the attainment of this, that, or the other divine 'rebirth'
> on the basis of views on reincarnation and transmigration that, as
> we have said, had already infiltrated into the less illuminated
> Indo-Aryan mentalities;"
>
> Just as with Vedism, the Aryan nucleus of early Buddhist teachings ended up
> being overgrown with a tropical and chaotic vegetation of autochtonous myths
and
> popular religious images, which, in turn, gave rise to the pre-Christian
> "doctrine of universal compassion encouraging humanitarianism and democratic
> equality" to which you allude ; asceticism, when practised by individuals
whose
> centre of gravity lies in the animal instincts with their labyrinthical
> moralistic ramifications, comes down to a mere mortification of the flesh
along
> sentimental and intropective lines. The short-circuit which fatally ends up
> being caused by a vague ascetic attempt in individuals who are not qualified
for
> the kind of action early Buddhist teachings are about eventually leads to a
> pathological condition which can be clearly seen in early Christian ascetics,
> which, as a matter of fact, would turn, for some of them, into mob leaders in
> their 'spare time', especially in ancient Egypt.
>
> Prince Siddhattha "was never concerned with upsetting the caste system on the
> ethnic, political, or social plane; on the contrary, it is laid down that a
man
> should not omit any of the obligations inherent in his station in life, and it
> is never said that a servant -- sudda (Skt.: sudra) -- or a vessa (Skt.:
vaisya)
> should not obey higher Aryan castes. The problem only concerns the spiritual
> apex of the Aryan hierarchy, where historical conditions required
discrimination
> and revision of the matter: it was necessary that the "lists" should be
reviewed
> and reconstructed, with the traditional dignities being considered real only
on
> "the merits of the individual cases. (...) there is no question here of
> equalitarian
> subversion under spiritual pretexts, but of rectification and
> epuration of the existing hierarchy. Prince Siddhattha has so
> little sympathy for the masses that in one of the oldest texts he
> speaks of the 'common crowd' as a 'heap of rubbish,' where there
> takes place the miraculous flowering of the Awakened One."
>
> "The only point we must take with a grain of salt in the texts is
> the affirmation that in individuals of all castes all possible
> potentialities, both positive and negative, exist in equal measure.
> But the Buddhist theory of sankhara, that is, of prenatal
> predispositions, is enough to rectify this point. The exclusiveness
> of caste, race, and tradition in a hierarchical system results in
> the individual possessing hereditary predispositions for his
> development in a particular direction; this ensures an organic and
> harmonious character in his development, as opposed to the cases in
> which an attempt is made to reach the same point with a kind of
> violence, by starting from a naturally unfavorable base."
>
> All quotes are taken from 'The Historical Context of the Doctrine of
Awakening',
> by J. Evola.
>
>
> --- In evola_as_he_is@yahoogroups.com, "Asdfasdsfdas" <andreforcordelia@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Researching Indo-Greek Bactria and its various Aryan-migration predecessors
I
> >was, inspired by Doctrine of Awakening, led to believe that a great European
> >Buddhism could have taken root were it not for the roaming hordes of Islam
which
> >eventually cut asunder the connection between the two civilizations. It
seemed
> >that Buddhism could have been a proper Northern renewal, with Aryan roots
going
> >at least as far back as Androvnovo culture.
> >
> >
> > My pessimism came about not by the reception that the Indo-Skythians and
> >Indo-Greeks took to Buddhism (see the following links,) but the fact that the
> >roots of Buddhism now strike me as hardly Aryan.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxila_copper_plate
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menander_I#Buddhism
> >
> > Vedic Aryanism was resolutely rooted in ritual, sacrifice, and hierarchy,
and
> >despite the physical characteristics of the Shakyamuni (including blue eyes)
he
> >was and remained a child of the wondering ascetics (shramanas) who forever
stood
> >in an almost egalitarian revolt against the Brahmins.
> >
> > Buddha's ksatriya tribe existed outside of Vedic centers of learning. The
> >founders of Jainism all claimed ksatriya lineage, as well.
> >
> > It was during the end of Buddha's austerities that he reached enlightenment,
> >and it was during this time he gathered his immense terminology for the
Buddhist
> >weltanschuuang such as "samsara," Nibbana" "dukkha" etc.
> > All of which come from Pre-Aryan India:
>
>http://books.google.co.in/books?id=bRQ5fpTmwoAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Heinrich\
+Zimmer&lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=this%20is%20the%20view%20that%20jainism%20shares%20\
with&f=false

> >e
> >
> > Not to mention the egalitarian premises of the Shramana paths such as
non-caste
> >society, vegetarianism, non-violence (to the point of not harming insects,
etc.
> > This is a far cry from the warrior ethos of the Bhagavad-Gita and the Rig
> Veda.
> >
> > It seems that Buddhism should be classified as a "child of the South,"
through
> >and through which in turn influenced Christian asceticism, not as an echo of
> >ancient Northern Aryan path but as an indigenous Dravidian sect which
migrated
> >north through contact with various conquering races (Persians, Greeks, etc).
> >
> > Already in the 1 century CE we find a distinct connection between the Indian
> >shramanas and European sources, Strabo the Roman historian records an event
of a
> >shramana in Greece performing suicide by self-immolation.
> >
> > Porphyry, the successor of Plotinus regarded asceticism as "the olympics of
the
> >soul," and was quoted as being impressed by the shramanas several times:
> >
> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/27204597/Asceticism-in-the-Graeco-Roman-World
> >
> > He wrote extensively on the shramanas in his treatise on vegetarianism, "On
> >abstinence from animal food, Book IV."
> >
> > The shramana practices eventually came to morph into Christian monasticism
at
> >least as far back as Clement of Alexandria, another vegetarian mystic
inspired
> >by the shramanas.
> >
> > "Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity
among
> >the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came
to
> >Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the
Chaldeans
> >among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sramanas among
the
> >Bactrians ("&#931;&#945;&#961;&#956;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#943;&#959;&#953;
> >&#914;&#940;&#954;&#964;&#961;&#969;&#957;"); and the philosophers of the
Celts;
> >and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into
> >the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the
> >number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two
> >classes, some of them called Sramanas
> >("&#931;&#945;&#961;&#956;&#940;&#957;&#945;&#953;"), and others Brahmins
> >("&#914;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#956;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#953;")." Clement of
> >Alexandria "The Stromata, or Miscellanies" Book I, Chapter XV
> > http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-stromata-book1.html
> >
> > Therefore, it seems that with roots in Pre-Vedic India, Buddhism stands in
> >stark contrast to the Solar deities of the Vedas, Eddas, and other IE
> >mythologies, and although the Buddha used the word "Ariya" (noble) to
describe
> >the truths of Buddhism, the past itself is in itself a Southern phenomena.
> >
>





Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:30 pm

evola_as_he_is
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Researching Indo-Greek Bactria and its various Aryan-migration predecessors I was, inspired by Doctrine of Awakening, led to believe that a great European...
Asdfasdsfdas
andreforcord... Offline Send Email
Feb 27, 2011
4:34 pm

We have followed those links but we have not found any evidence that would substantiate the view that the roots of Buddhism "(were) hardly Aryan". Originally...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Feb 27, 2011
6:15 pm

Simply put, concepts such as Samsara, Nibbana, and Dukkha have their origins in Pre-Vedic Shramanic Traditions. They are noticeably absent from the Rig Veda. ...
Asdfasdsfdas Sfsdf
andreforcord... Offline Send Email
Feb 28, 2011
6:13 pm

The term sa&#7747;s&#257;ra may have made "a relatively late appearance", the fact still remains that the concept, and, beyond this, the consciousness of life...
Evola
evola_as_he_is Offline Send Email
Feb 28, 2011
11:30 pm

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